DS 112 - Working Cut
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[00:00:12] Corey Quinn: Hey, it's Corey. So [00:00:15] after over a hundred episodes of the Deep Specialization Podcast, we have [00:00:20] heard from some amazing agency owners about their journey [00:00:25] through becoming a vertical market specialist and how they've scaled [00:00:30] their agency.
[00:00:30] Corey Quinn: On this episode, I thought it would be fun to put together a compilation of [00:00:35] the best of the best answers that we heard from these amazing agency owners [00:00:40] about what it means to be a vertical market specialist and what the true [00:00:45] benefits are, and please stay tuned because at the end I'm gonna share with [00:00:50] you an announcement about the future of this podcast.
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[00:01:28] Corey Quinn: what are some [00:01:30] positives about verticalizing a business?
[00:01:32] Jamie Adams: Yeah, I mean, one, I think it, it helps you get really, [00:01:35] really clear on your tam and it helps you get really, really clear on, on product market fit, right?
[00:01:39] Jamie Adams: [00:01:40] So how well does your product, and again, I use the word product, but when I [00:01:45] say product, I really mean whatever it is, whatever your deliverable is that the customer's paying for. It [00:01:50] could be technology, could be a SaaS platform, could be a set of services, it could [00:01:55] be a combination of any of those things, right?
[00:01:57] Jamie Adams: But you know what? You can get really dialed [00:02:00] in on does my product solve this very specific [00:02:05] customer segment problem? And if it does, great, you should be really successful [00:02:10] selling it and retaining it. And if it doesn't, right? Okay, well what tweaks can I [00:02:15] make to, just, to, to, to get value into that specific segment?
[00:02:19] Jamie Adams: [00:02:20] Um, so I, I just think from like a tam and product market fit, right, it just helps you get clearer and the, the [00:02:25] clearer that you can become right, your, the better chance you're gonna be able to execute, right? So [00:02:30] that's, that's step number one. I think step number two is that like, think beyond like your product [00:02:35] market fit.
[00:02:35] Jamie Adams: You know, when you, when you can address the specific problems of a [00:02:40] customer, then you can point all of your marketing collateral talking specifically to that [00:02:45] audience. And when you're able to talk that specifically to an audience. Right, that's [00:02:50] gonna resonate. The marketing content's gonna resonate more, right?
[00:02:53] Jamie Adams: They end up at your website. [00:02:55] And again, let's just say that you're, you're targeting, um, you know, coffee shops, [00:03:00] right? Everything about your website is talking about, you know, how you're helping, you know, [00:03:05] coffee shop owners, or you're helping baristas and you're, everything about your content is like addressing the [00:03:10] problems of that specific segment.
[00:03:12] Jamie Adams: Not, you know, you got the coffee shop guy and then you got your [00:03:15] clothing retail person. Like, there's just complexity that, that, that comes with expanding [00:03:20] beyond, you know, a very certain vertical. So I think, again, you know, you can get really tight on product [00:03:25] market fit and Tam, you can get really tight on your, on your marketing content.
[00:03:28] Jamie Adams: And then I think you can get really [00:03:30] tight on how you service those customers, right? Because again, you start, your [00:03:35] employees start to know. Their business problems. You get to know elements of their [00:03:40] business, you can give them advice beyond maybe even the things that you're selling them, um, that would be [00:03:45] beneficial, right?
[00:03:45] Jamie Adams: That's gonna strengthen the relationship that's gonna make them wanna spend more money with you and continue to do [00:03:50] business with you. So basically how you scale kind of your customer service [00:03:55] just improves too, because you're only focused on, you know, one set of businesses. And then I think that when [00:04:00] you do that, when you get that locked into ideally one vertical, [00:04:05] and again, you've gotta make sure that that vertical is large enough to [00:04:10] satisfy whatever kind of growth goals that you've got as a business.
[00:04:14] Jamie Adams: Or you've gotta be [00:04:15] willing to say, well, it's not, but it'll get me to kind of stage one or milestone one, at which point I can [00:04:20] expand. But at some point you're probably going to. You're probably gonna expand beyond one [00:04:25] vertical. But if you take that really tight vertical approach and you pay attention to the things that I just [00:04:30] talked about, right, who get really clear on the tam, really clear on making sure that you got [00:04:35] great product, product market fit, really clear that your marketing collateral and your sales collateral and your [00:04:40] processes kind of match how they, how they can solve the problems and needs of those businesses.[00:04:45]
[00:04:45] Jamie Adams: And then really clear on how can you service them in a way that's gonna keep them continuing to do business with you. You, you [00:04:50] do really good job across all those spectrums. You document it. You can just take that system, you [00:04:55] can take that blueprint, and then you can just go dump it into the next vertical that you want to expand into.
[00:04:59] Corey Quinn: What are [00:05:00] some of the business benefits that you get as a result of running this formula?
[00:05:04] Jamie Adams: Like [00:05:05] at like a company like Scorpion? Yeah. I mean, I think one you get, you [00:05:10] know, your, your, your people get more confident when they're talking to customers. And that's, again, that's [00:05:15] from, from the, the beginning of the cycle all the way to the, the satisfaction stage of the [00:05:20] cycle when they bought.
[00:05:20] Jamie Adams: And you're just trying to, to increase confidence and get them, continue to do business with you. [00:05:25] So in, in our case, you know, when our sales team is, again, they're verticalized [00:05:30] today, you know, from a, from a salesperson's perspective, right? When they're calling on [00:05:35] their, their client list or their prospect list.
[00:05:37] Jamie Adams: Right. They, they're confident in that phone [00:05:40] call because, you know, again, this is after they've been here for a few months or a year, but [00:05:45] they've worked with, if they're an hvac, selling an hvac, they've worked with other HVAC dealers, they know how [00:05:50] to speak the language, right? A lot of them, some of them could actually probably walk into an HVAC [00:05:55] company today and actually be pretty good general managers or operational managers and HVAC companies, they know it that [00:06:00] intimately, right?
[00:06:00] Jamie Adams: So when you know it that intimately and you pair that with your product or solution knowledge that they've [00:06:05] got about what we do, their, their conversations are gonna be. More [00:06:10] positive, they're gonna build trust faster. They're probably gonna sell more things, [00:06:15] right? So that being vertically focused permeates the entire [00:06:20] organ the same way, right?
[00:06:21] Jamie Adams: When we sell something and we move it on to the next stage of [00:06:25] building a website for a customer, right? That goes into a queue of people that build websites for [00:06:30] HVAC co companies so they can talk to the business about, Hey, these are the types of call to [00:06:35] actions that we see drive better website conversions.
[00:06:38] Jamie Adams: Right. [00:06:40] Offering 24 hour emergency service, um, offering same day [00:06:45] service, right? Again, I'm just throwing these random things out there, but they can make those recommendations and again, builds [00:06:50] confidence with the customer, right? When we deliver the website and their marketing campaign starts and they [00:06:55] move to an account management function, same thing, right?
[00:06:57] Jamie Adams: Account managers can talk to them about, Hey, these are the types of [00:07:00] strategies we're gonna try to execute, and here's the way that they work for other customers like you in the past. [00:07:05] So those are the bene business benefits. And of course, those things lead to higher close [00:07:10] rates, right? More customer satisfaction, more retention, more revenue.
[00:07:14] Jamie Adams: [00:07:15] So, you know, those are the things that, you know, from a financial perspective, that's how they show up, right? But I would [00:07:20] say that they're more meaningful just in the human connection.
[00:07:22] Corey Quinn: One thing I would add to that in my, in my [00:07:25] experience is that when done really well over an a long enough period of time is that you build up a great [00:07:30] reputation in the industry, which, which results in word of mouth.
[00:07:34] Jamie Adams: Amen.
[00:07:34] Corey Quinn: [00:07:35] And that's the sort of the holy grail, right? 100%.
[00:07:38] Jamie Adams: Absolutely.
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[00:07:55] Corey Quinn: ~Today I'm joined by Alex Membrillo Welcome Alex. Thanks for having me, Corey.~
[00:07:55] Corey Quinn: ~Super excited to have you on the show. Could you please introduce yourself to those listeners who may not be familiar with you and your background? Yeah, that would be everybody. So what's up everyone? I am, I'm Alex Membrillo We are based out of Atlanta. We are a performance marketing agency for multi-location PE-backed provider groups.~
[00:07:55] Alex Membrillo: ~So think your growing dermatology, behavioral dental group, they come to us when they're five locations and they want lots of new patients so that they can get to 50 or 500 locations and and sell their business even bigger or go public. And so that's, we help with that journey. Websites, SEO search, Facebook Ads, analytics.~
[00:07:55] Alex Membrillo: ~Anything it takes to drive a patient. That's a very specific audience. Just so I feed it back to you. So it is healthcare organizations that are multi-location, that are backed by a private equity firm that is looking to grow in size and scale and scope quickly. Yeah. You got it. Yep. Okay. Awesome. I'm familiar with that space a little bit.~
[00:07:55] Corey Quinn: ~You are a little from Scorpion A little bit, yeah. Yes. Personal injury law firms too. We've got one. Okay.~
[00:07:55] Corey Quinn: ~Those are, those are good clients too. I hear. What can you share about the, the size, the revenue, number of clients, whatever, about Cardinal, just so the listeners can get a sense of the scope of your business. Yeah, so this year we became an eight figure agency. It was always my dream to become shit. It was always my dream just to make a a six figure agency, but then we had seven figures and it took me like another decade to hit the eighth one.~
[00:07:55] Alex Membrillo: ~And we've got about 50 people and, uh, we grew like crazy through COVID. You know, you don't wanna say a pandemic's good for business, but a pandemic was really good for business. Let's not get another one. Uh, but you know, we went from 15 to 50 people and 24 months. And so that came with a lot of your growing pains that we're still going through, but a lot of, a lot of fun and largely driven by the adoption of digital from antiquated marketers or clients. ~
[00:07:55] Corey Quinn: What was that transition like? You've, you determined that healthcare made the most sense. [00:08:00] You were connected to the mission and all this evidence was the right thing. ~Did you just fire all your non-healthcare clients or what did that transition from? No. No. And I hope they don't listen to this one. No, they are firing us now though.~
[00:08:03] Corey Quinn: ~Slowly but surely they're saying like. Oh gosh, there you don't send me newsletters that have anything to do with my industry anymore. So, you know, slowly but surely they figure it out. We still have a, a decent concentration of higher ed. I think it's like 10% of our business. We've done some really good work for some higher ed, also a feel good industry that is fairly behind and slow moving.~
[00:08:03] Corey Quinn: ~'cause you guys are looking for a. But that one's a good one. We really enjoy it and we still have great teams that have been through all the higher ed, so that's fine. No, don't go fire anyone. You don't need to. If you do good work, keep doing the good work. They'll slowly drop off. We do get fired like every four or five months from a previous client that wants a specialist in whatever they are.~
[00:08:03] Corey Quinn: ~That's fine. You just have to hope that your specialization replaces faster.~ What impact has specializing [00:08:05] in the healthcare vertical had in your ability to attract new healthcare clients [00:08:10] versus before you guys specialized?
[00:08:11] Alex Membrillo: The content is actually good. I didn't think content really mattered [00:08:15] until we brought on Ashley and she created this phenomenal content.
[00:08:17] Alex Membrillo: But like now the content is [00:08:20] more than just 10 SEO tips. You get ranked for your doctor group. It's like the things that [00:08:25] actually matter to them. Like how do you build house? I'm not gonna use all the terminology, but [00:08:30] your content gets. Way more interesting to that group and you know who [00:08:35] to send it to and how to send it.
[00:08:36] Alex Membrillo: So tremendously different in ways that I couldn't. [00:08:40] Have anticipated so very useful. You just get smarter and the content gets better [00:08:45] and chat. GPT is stupid as shit. I think it's gonna help a ton, but everybody can use it, so [00:08:50] that makes everybody's content the same. And so you get a unique spin when you know [00:08:55] the industry really, really well, and that helps attract more of the sophisticated [00:09:00] buyers of that industry.
[00:09:01] Alex Membrillo: It takes years, dude. I mean, people figure out, people see you changed your [00:09:05] face, but it takes a long time to show that you know what the hell you're talking about. That has taken [00:09:10] us a while. It is not an over overnight switch.
[00:09:12] Corey Quinn: Did you have a background in healthcare [00:09:15] before? Mm-hmm. Making this transition?
[00:09:16] Corey Quinn: So how did you. How did you learn how to [00:09:20] communicate at an intimate level with the healthcare providers you were trying to attract as clients?
[00:09:24] Alex Membrillo: [00:09:25] Man, you talk to so many, you take a bunch of discovery calls and you hear how they talk. You go to the [00:09:30] conferences, you meet the people that influence them. You get a podcast.
[00:09:32] Alex Membrillo: So you interview them and you can ask them in a [00:09:35] non-confrontational way 'cause they're not a client. You hit people on LinkedIn as much as you [00:09:40] can and you say, can I just pick your brain? So it's a ton of learning. I would not say books were that helpful because [00:09:45] I'm not reading like clinical books, but it's a lot of interviewing the right people and hearing how they think and what matters [00:09:50] to them.
[00:09:50] Alex Membrillo: Conferences are good for that. Webinars good, but meeting people has been [00:09:55] the best use because they tell you the secret sausage on what actually matters for [00:10:00] healthcare business. Um, and then you get a few of 'em. To the owner agencies, like when you [00:10:05] choose a specialization, make sure you're going on the sales calls.
[00:10:07] Alex Membrillo: Make sure you're selling the first [00:10:10] fucking 30 clients. 'cause you have to hear what matters and how they talk. Like you cannot [00:10:15] abdicate this responsibility or delegate it and have them report up. You have to hear this and [00:10:20] learn it yourself. You also have to. Bring the whole go to market strategy yourself.
[00:10:24] Alex Membrillo: You have [00:10:25] to build a marketing function. I don't care if you have a marketing director, don't have one until it's built and you're [00:10:30] building it or it won't work. I would agree with that a thousand percent. Does the healthcare [00:10:35] industry have a unique language? Heck yeah, man. They call 'em clients. [00:10:40] Patients to start.
[00:10:42] Alex Membrillo: Yeah. They have a lot of unique insurance companies are [00:10:45] called payers. They've got tons of unique and within. Healthcare, there's a bunch of subspecialties, [00:10:50] dermatology, dental, behavioral, and veterinary groups. They speak entirely different [00:10:55] languages, so I'm finding it's not even good enough to say we're multi-location [00:11:00] performance agency for provider groups like.
[00:11:02] Alex Membrillo: That's not even good enough. They even want more [00:11:05] specialization. So then you have to assign teams that know dental really well. You have to assign teams that know behavioral. [00:11:10] Your salesperson has to know all of 'em really well and speak the language. You have to have content that goes to them that [00:11:15] speak.
[00:11:15] Alex Membrillo: It's a lot. So just healthcare, just like you wouldn't just pick legal. Uh, [00:11:20] bankruptcy attorney is very different than a PI firm, right? So, yeah, there's a lot of [00:11:25] vernacular. Even within the things, would you be successful in healthcare if you weren't unable to communicate in [00:11:30] that language? Like six years ago, there weren't as many copycat agencies, but now a lot of agencies have [00:11:35] gotten better.
[00:11:35] Alex Membrillo: They are specialized, and so now it won't work. I mean, we struggle from [00:11:40] quarter to quarter. I mean, this quarter not been fun. The last few years, tremendous growth. This last quarter, the whole market has slowed [00:11:45] down. Economy slowed down. If we didn't have our specialization, no, no one would be hiring us.
[00:11:49] Alex Membrillo: 'cause we're not the [00:11:50] cheapest. Everyone's going for cheap right now. It's very hard to convince clients to go for [00:11:55] not cheap. And user specialization only has so much flexibility. How do you attract [00:12:00] new healthcare clients today? Yeah, we're pretty good at this part. A marketing agency should be good at [00:12:05] marketing.
[00:12:05] Alex Membrillo: That sounds obvious, but they usually aren't. So we create a ton of content and we send it [00:12:10] out to every decision maker that would influence the buying decision. That's the simple version. The long [00:12:15] version is that we do. Blogs, podcasts, webinars, round tables. We've [00:12:20] got a virtual summit coming later this year.
[00:12:22] Alex Membrillo: Case studies, you name it. I want it to be the media [00:12:25] company. People have talked about doing that, but for me it's, I want everybody to see, touch, and [00:12:30] feel and hear us in every different way. I wanna touch all the senses, and so we have every kind of, [00:12:35] every kind of delivery platform for the content possible.
[00:12:38] Alex Membrillo: But guys, the actual tactical [00:12:40] things like go get a list. Go subscribe to ZoomInfo. The shit isn't cheap. It's gonna run you 10 [00:12:45] KA year for a good amount of context. You download them, you clean 'em really good. You get some [00:12:50] domains warmed up harder to do. Now they're getting restricted on how to do that. And then you send really [00:12:55] thoughtful content.
[00:12:55] Alex Membrillo: Don't ask for a fucking meeting, never ask for a meeting. Don't ever do that. Okay? That's [00:13:00] shit is not working anymore. Unless you're an outbound salesperson. You've got something really specific and thoughtful to say, [00:13:05] in my opinion, outbound agency. Okay, that's work. The outbound inbound agency, the [00:13:10] outbound thing works for others, but you send really thoughtful content.
[00:13:12] Alex Membrillo: You interview leaders and then you get the [00:13:15] people that in influence those marketing directors, like the PE guys and [00:13:20] women, and you get them integrated into your content and you go to their conferences and then you're hitting 'em from both [00:13:25] ways. The marketing director wants to hire you and she got recommended by the PE guy.
[00:13:28] Alex Membrillo: Fucking easy choice. [00:13:30] Um, so it's about creating a ton of content and getting it into the right hands. It's not that sophisticated. [00:13:35] I don't know why agencies. Don't prioritize their own marketing. I don't get it. And then not to mention [00:13:40] the number one way to drive leads is by ranking online. SEO is not dead.
[00:13:43] Alex Membrillo: Chad GBT is not [00:13:45] gonna fucking kill it. Neither is barred And so ranking for whatever you do, [00:13:50] industry and service, if you go searching for dermatology, marketing agency, dental, SEO company, [00:13:55] any of that stuff, we should rank and spend a fortune on it and have for 13 [00:14:00] years. So. SEO email content of every type.
[00:14:03] Corey Quinn: Is it fair to say that most of your new [00:14:05] business is through referral or inbound?
[00:14:07] Alex Membrillo: No. Inbound. 50 some percent [00:14:10] of our new client signings is from thought leadership. Man, I [00:14:15] better, 65%. I would say 30 some percent is through referral [00:14:20] and it's inching up. The more we're well known, you'll see the referral inching up.
[00:14:24] Alex Membrillo: They're the better [00:14:25] deals, but net new not, we just signed the biggest physical therapy group in the country. [00:14:30] That, uh, came through outbound email. We just signed the biggest home health group in the world that [00:14:35] came through SEO. So it used to be this thing like, you're only gonna get small deals from SEO.
[00:14:39] Alex Membrillo: [00:14:40] It's total bullshit. Big firms really smart people go searching. Do you do any outbound [00:14:45] sales? Not one bit. Not one bit. And there's nothing wrong with it. I think you see firms like Scorpion [00:14:50] and Power Digital that have grown way bigger than we have because it's more linear. They're, if they can do it [00:14:55] smart, it's hard.
[00:14:55] Alex Membrillo: I don't understand how to do it, but it's way more linear than inbound. Stuck to [00:15:00] what I'm good at. I have failed every time I've stood up outbound programs, you know, we ever get bought. Maybe they'll [00:15:05] know how to do it. I don't fucking know. But, uh, it's hard, but it's no doubt it's hard. [00:15:10] It's hard, you know, I bought all the outbound tools, the SalesLoft, I hired a team of three SDRs two years ago [00:15:15] and I was like, dude, I, there's something I just don't understand about this, so let me just put a bunch of [00:15:20] words on the website and tell people go to it, and that'll hope and that worked.
[00:15:23] Corey Quinn: ~What is the structure of your sales team today? ~
[00:15:23] Alex Membrillo: ~Yeah, there's a head of. New partnerships. Lauren had been with me a decade, one of the smartest people I've ever met. And then, uh, she has a colleague lean that helps bring on new partnerships. They'll bring in experts as needed, help diagnose the media, the website, the SEO issues, for the most part.~
[00:15:23] Alex Membrillo: ~They can handle a lot of it, um, themselves, and then they transition over to the clients team. Something we're gonna work on this year is expanding client partnerships. When you start bringing on the larger clients. They don't start big and it's incumbent on you to start small and, and get 'em big, and we're not good at that of at the ladder yet.~
[00:15:23] Corey Quinn: ~Let's transition to conferences and associations. In healthcare, you mentioned a couple times that that's been a part of your go-to market. What impact does getting involved with conferences and the content circuits? ~
[00:15:23] Alex Membrillo: ~It provides no value if you do it wrong, and I did it wrong for like 11 years, it will provide no value.~
[00:15:23] Alex Membrillo: ~It's like it's the medium to get a really great interaction. The the tactical way. I hate when podcasts used to talk high level, so I'm gonna tell you exactly how we do it. We try to get a speaking engagement. If it's free, great. If it's not, I'll pay the 10 K or whatever. So even moderate a little panel makes you look smart.~
[00:15:23] Alex Membrillo: ~And then you go to LinkedIn and you hit up all the people in that industry that you've connected with. We have a LinkedIn connection person. We have a LinkedIn messaging person, like we've got contractors for everything. We say, go hit up everybody in the dermatology marketing space 'cause Alex is going to moderate a panel in the dermatology market.~
[00:15:23] Alex Membrillo: ~Conference. Get meetings, then take lots of fucking pictures while you're there. Post it all over LinkedIn, send it out to the email list. Hey, we're in the industry, we look smart. We're gonna be there. That has helped. Just going there with a booth like Corey, maybe you know how to do this, but the booth shit I've never done.~
[00:15:23] Alex Membrillo: ~And, um, paying to speak with nothing else to go with it. Setting up meetings also useless, but. Um, slowly but surely you see the same people at the things, and then I guess they trust you more on your three and maybe they're a client. Then how do you define word of mouth? Any, I think I define it as any lead that didn't come from one of our thought leadership channels.~
[00:15:23] Alex Membrillo: ~So it's someone, you know, marketing directors know each other and then they ask for recommendation, maybe that simple, and they said, yeah, I know Cardinal, but man, it takes a lot to get to that. That's impossible for me to measure or get to. I just do the activities that lead to people thinking about us.~
[00:15:23] Corey Quinn: ~So what are those activities? ~
[00:15:23] Alex Membrillo: ~Yeah, all the stuff we talked about with inbound, making sure I am everywhere all the time. If a marketing director is looking for information on an agency, I'm there. If they're looking to learn anything about healthcare performance marketing, I'm there. Before they even fucking go to Google, we're there.~
[00:15:23] Alex Membrillo: So some advice. [00:15:25] So let's say that someone listening to us, who is your. 10-year-old [00:15:30] version of Cardinal, not the today version, and they're thinking about verticalizing [00:15:35] in one or more verticals, what would you say to them? Don't wait, don't wait another minute. Go [00:15:40] to the Hedgehog principle. I can know it better than I do.
[00:15:42] Alex Membrillo: Uh, and pick one they feel good about [00:15:45] and you can make good money and help a good, and do the best work in the world at, go ahead and pick it and [00:15:50] never, never look back. Never look back. Expertise over variety, [00:15:55] expertise over variety. Just write that on the notebook next to you. Before you go to sleep, wake up and look at it [00:16:00] and say it can't really get worse.
[00:16:02] Alex Membrillo: Maybe it can get better.
[00:16:03] Corey Quinn: When's the right time to verticalize a [00:16:05] business? Early stage?
[00:16:06] Alex Membrillo: No. No, ~no, no. A lot of agency owners are accidental too. Like they just started, they had an in-house marketing gig and then they went and did it. So~ I would say like take a bunch of different clients for [00:16:10] three years and then picked up one year best at B2B, so different than B2C.
[00:16:14] Alex Membrillo: Uh, [00:16:15] healthcare is so different than PIA law firms. So different than e-comm. Don't take the first thing [00:16:20] you're exposed to. Do a bunch of different shit for a few years, have fun, and then pick one.
[00:16:23] Corey Quinn: That's awesome. ~And really, I just have one more question for you. Hmm. What's your motivation? ~
[00:16:24] Alex Membrillo: ~Uh, time with the kids?~
[00:16:24] Alex Membrillo: ~Time with the kids? I love it. This provides a good lifestyle, keeps me challenge. Right after this, I'm gonna go ride ATVs with my kid. Um, I really enjoy that. This is, marketing is good job security. It's also very challenging. So mentally I'm always kept. Sharp. ~
[00:16:24] Corey Quinn: ~How many kids you got? ~
[00:16:24] Alex Membrillo: ~I've got uh, three. I've got 13, three, and one.~
[00:16:24] Alex Membrillo: ~All of them are about to hit birthdays. Um, so good time with them. Family time. The agency life this year is not gonna provide as much time as I'd like 'cause we're in a grinding year. Um, most of 'em are, but this one's gonna be even more of a grind. It's gonna be a fun grind. A lot of learning and meeting people, but it's, it's not gonna be an easier year.~
[00:16:24] Alex Membrillo: ~I love it. Um, so yeah, time with them and the profit's not bad. Uh, and the work we do is good. ~
[00:16:24] Corey Quinn: ~Great. No, no better motivation in, in my book, so that's awesome. Yeah. ~
[00:16:24] Alex Membrillo: ~Thanks. Good. ~
[00:16:24] Corey Quinn: ~Well, thank you so much for joining, Alex. I'll go ahead and wrap it up. Alright folks, that's it for today. I'm Cory Quinn, and I hope you join me again next time in the Vertical Go To Market podcast.~
[00:16:24] Corey Quinn: ~If you receive value from the show, I would love a five star rating and review on Apple Podcast. Thank you so much. We'll see you next time. ~
[00:16:39] Corey Quinn: what are [00:16:40] some positive aspects of taking a vertical approach to business in general? [00:16:45]
[00:16:45] Chris Yano: In a lot of ways it was an accident for me, so I'm gr I'm grateful it worked out that way.
[00:16:49] Chris Yano: It was just [00:16:50] opportunity that came up. But what I've learned is if I ever was to do this again, [00:16:55] I would do it the exact same way where I took a niche and focused on it because. You know how [00:17:00] like racehorses have blinders on, you know, and they, that way they can only see what's in front of 'em. It, it kind [00:17:05] of blocks out the other noise.
[00:17:07] Chris Yano: You can just hyperfocus on one vertical, learn all the things [00:17:10] about it. You can get educated on it and then you can go out. Like focusing on the, [00:17:15] on the niche allows you to learn it quicker and to increase [00:17:20] your confidence more and to re legit be good at it, and you legit be good at it. And then tell [00:17:25] that story.
[00:17:25] Chris Yano: 'cause. I mean, I don't know about you, man, but if I did the same thing every single day. [00:17:30] I better be getting better at it. You know, and you do. If you just look at the same thing over and over [00:17:35] and over and over and over again, you start to figure out what to do and you can do that quicker. When you focus on a [00:17:40] vertical, you, you can scale a massive company in one vertical [00:17:45] in the United States alone, a big company, I'm talking $20 million company for sure.
[00:17:48] Chris Yano: Like you can do [00:17:50] it by focusing on and vertical. Avery and I and I [00:17:55] imagine be very profitable and very happy with life. A million percent because you become more efficient. [00:18:00] Right. And you can start to, you start to build a scalable, repeatable model because you [00:18:05] learn what to do, you learn what works. Now you start to figure out how do I do it and be more efficient at it.
[00:18:09] Corey Quinn: [00:18:10] Amen. What are the negatives to verticalizing?
[00:18:13] Chris Yano: Um, kinda like what I was saying is [00:18:15] when you do are in a vertical, you miss out on potential opportunity. I mean, the only time I ever, um, [00:18:20] consider doing something outside the vertical is if the opportunity is great enough to disrupt the process. Um, [00:18:25] and that certainly happens, but, um, you, so you, you miss out on potential opportunity.
[00:18:29] Chris Yano: And, [00:18:30] and the same thing is, is that if you. If you mess up enough [00:18:35] times and it goes bad and you get black eyes, when those guys get together for whatever conference that they [00:18:40] have and you know they all got them and somebody starts saying negative things, it spreads. And so you could [00:18:45] cripple your business if you do too many negative things.
[00:18:47] Chris Yano: That's why I'm saying reputation over revenue. Do what's right. [00:18:50] You may think like, I can't afford to give that guy $5,000 back. No. What you can't afford is that guy getting [00:18:55] pissed and going and telling all of his buddies. And then you have no vertical because nobody trusts you. Mm-hmm. So you do what's [00:19:00] right.
[00:19:00] Chris Yano: So that's one of the, that's one of the things you have to be cautious of is you gotta legit do a [00:19:05] good job for them. And when you, if you don't, I mean when you mess up and you will, you own it [00:19:10] and you can make sure you manage that reputation.
[00:19:12] Corey Quinn: Last question for you, Chris. What is [00:19:15] your motivation?
[00:19:16] Chris Yano: Man, that's a great question.
[00:19:17] Chris Yano: So, um, the one thing that means probably the [00:19:20] most to me besides my family, but in regards to this business that I like to accomplish with it, is I'm a [00:19:25] huge, and you, I can, we may have had this conversation and for sure Jamie knows this about me. Um, [00:19:30] but I'm a huge, uh, believer in giving back. Um, and doing good is good [00:19:35] business and not the cliche word of it, like, here's what we do.
[00:19:39] Chris Yano: The [00:19:40] bigger I grow this business, this is the platform that I feel like I've been given to serve the masses. And [00:19:45] so, um, that I carry that on my shoulders, but I'm willing to take that because the [00:19:50] bigger I grow this thing, the more lives I'm impacting beyond what we're actually doing with digital marketing [00:19:55] and is I get to have my employees.
[00:19:58] Chris Yano: Go and do a community [00:20:00] service day once a month, every single Friday, and I pay for it. I pay their salary to go and serve the community. [00:20:05] And so if you can imagine at the volume people we have, that's a lot of salary that I'm [00:20:10] paying for them to have zero output, right? For actual in operations of the [00:20:15] business.
[00:20:15] Chris Yano: But what I'm doing is I'm pouring so much into them as a human being [00:20:20] and they're going and giving back to people that they may have never, never done before. Not 'cause they didn't want to, they just didn't [00:20:25] know how to go do it. And what it also does is it builds the culture of the business. These guys are going and [00:20:30] serving other people together and, and if you have a heart whatsoever, [00:20:35] it feels good to do those things.
[00:20:36] Chris Yano: So it really helps us minimize turnover in the business, but also we're now [00:20:40] giving back at scale. And so every time we get bigger. Not only am I able to cut bigger [00:20:45] checks to all these organizations, I'm also be able to put, be the hands and feet, like sending my [00:20:50] team out there to go and serve it. And a lot of them are saying, I'm gonna go and serve on my own time at different times.
[00:20:54] Chris Yano: And I did that. [00:20:55] It's like a, like a, for a lack of a better term, a pyramid scheme of giving back [00:21:00] that I created. One that you can be proud of though. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's, and that's a big driver for me and [00:21:05] my kids. See that about me, you know. And, and the, that's, you know, the big legacy I, I think I [00:21:10] want to leave is I built a really reputable business where I was able to give back a ton.
[00:21:14] Chris Yano: And because I [00:21:15] focus so much on the reputation and I focus so much on the employees and making sure that the employees are cared [00:21:20] about, they, they're improved, they have all the tools that need to be successful, made them better human beings, and I'm able to give [00:21:25] back. I'm good if, if, if, if I was, I don't want this to happen, [00:21:30] but if I died tomorrow, I would be fulfilled.
[00:21:32] Chris Yano: I've done a good job. I've lived a full life. [00:21:35]
[00:21:35] Corey Quinn: You've had a massive impact on so many lives.
[00:21:37] Chris Yano: Yeah. Yeah. And that feels good.
[00:21:39] Corey Quinn: That's beautiful. [00:21:40] [00:21:45] [00:21:50] [00:21:55] [00:22:00] has there been any mistakes as it relates to taking this vertical or this, this [00:22:05] niche approach?
[00:22:07] Ron Callis Jr.: I can see no flaws with tackling a niche. [00:22:10] I mean, and if you, I never considered any alternative. [00:22:15] It was never on my board of options and that's, you know, I can [00:22:20] see that if someone's, and I, I understand many people maybe say, I wanna be a [00:22:25] marketer and I wanna open a marketing agency.
[00:22:28] Ron Callis Jr.: That was not remotely me. [00:22:30] I never woke up and said that was an ambition of mine. Yeah, so I never saw [00:22:35] myself as being a marketer for businesses. I saw myself always for [00:22:40] 24 years trying to serve this type of business owner. It's just there's [00:22:45] something about small business. If you are a small business, you hear me?[00:22:50]
[00:22:50] Ron Callis Jr.: It's hard. It's brutally hard. College doesn't [00:22:55] prepare you for it. Life doesn't prepare you for it. Nothing prepares you for [00:23:00] it. You jump off the cliff, you start falling. Gravity takes [00:23:05] over and you throw a shoot and you hope the shoot opens and the shoot, oh, if you [00:23:10] talk the shoot opening, you say, well, what is the shoot opening success?
[00:23:14] Ron Callis Jr.: [00:23:15] Well, I would challenge that most small business owners, I'm like, I, I don't wanna be [00:23:20] the, the skeptic or the pessimist, but most small businesses are not what I [00:23:25] would call successful. Those business o owners are slaves to a [00:23:30] crazy person themselves, and they work tremendous numbers of hours. [00:23:35] And if they really did the math, how much money are they really making?
[00:23:38] Ron Callis Jr.: They're probably [00:23:40] better off getting a job and. Except for the fact that they have this [00:23:45] theoretical thing called freedom. They really don't have freedom because [00:23:50] they're tied to working for this crazy person themselves. And so [00:23:55] now they're gonna go out and work harder and harder. And so I could go down this road and I have been that crazy [00:24:00] person, so this is me talking to me, and it is hard to [00:24:05] run a small business.
[00:24:06] Ron Callis Jr.: And so I find joy in [00:24:10] being the light. To the businesses that we work with, [00:24:15] at least in this small little domain of all the problems they're trying to solve in their life of [00:24:20] marketing. We at least will bring light to them in that [00:24:25] category of their, of their business. We will be their counsel. We will be their [00:24:30] shoulder to cry on.
[00:24:31] Ron Callis Jr.: We will be the person telling them what's coming around the corner. [00:24:35] We will be the person that listens to their hopes, dreams, wishes, desires for [00:24:40] the future state of their business. And we're gonna be the ones that help put [00:24:45] them in the driver's seat. We're gonna pick them up, put them in the driver's seat, and we're gonna say, here's [00:24:50] how we're gonna get there.
[00:24:52] Ron Callis Jr.: And these business owners don't often have [00:24:55] this person in their life. And we are that for these business owners. And [00:25:00] that's a joy to have that role, and it's a responsibility to have that [00:25:05] role. So how do you do that? If [00:25:10] you aren't optimized to help them or support them, this is just the [00:25:15] engineer in me.
[00:25:15] Ron Callis Jr.: Well, if you were a dentist, I don't know how to help you. If [00:25:20] you're a florist or a lawyer, my God, there's like 50 types of lawyers. I don't have [00:25:25] any idea how to help you, but if you're in my niche. [00:25:30] I intimately understand how to help you because I've gone [00:25:35] to your trade shows. I've spent, I say I, that's synonymous from my team.
[00:25:39] Ron Callis Jr.: [00:25:40] We've spent thousands upon thousands upon thousands of hours talking to them, [00:25:45] listening to them, understanding them, so that we're best positioned [00:25:50] to take these tactics in our marketing toolbox [00:25:55] to help them achieve that vision They have. That is value. [00:26:00] Value is what you receive. Money is what you pay. We deliver tremendous amounts [00:26:05] of value.
[00:26:06] Ron Callis Jr.: So guess what? We get to charge a premium for our services [00:26:10] because it's worth a lot. Will you cost more than the next guy? [00:26:15] I hope I cost more. In fact, I'm insulted if you tell me [00:26:20] I'm not the most expensive vendor you're talking to because I am the most [00:26:25] valuable vendor you're talking to. Ab compare me, [00:26:30] hire them, and then come back.
[00:26:32] Ron Callis Jr.: It's okay. I won't be offended. [00:26:35] And I have people take me up on that and then they come back and I say, let's go. [00:26:40] No offense. Let's rock and roll. Let's go grow your business.
[00:26:43] Corey Quinn: Same thing happened with us at Scorpion, where we would [00:26:45] have clients who, they would get itchy feet, leave us, and then inevitably come back.
[00:26:49] Corey Quinn: Uh, [00:26:50] you're, you're reminding me of a book. Are you familiar with a book called Peak by Chip Conley? [00:26:55]
[00:26:55] Ron Callis Jr.: No, but I'm gonna write it down.
[00:26:57] Corey Quinn: So Chip Conley, he was the founder of a [00:27:00] boutique hotel chain called Aviv, and then [00:27:05] his next venture was the head of. Experience That wasn't the right title, [00:27:10] but, uh, head of a, like, customer experience or, or, you know, traveler experience at a, at [00:27:15] Airbnb.
[00:27:15] Corey Quinn: So he had a big role in growing Airbnb and it's all about [00:27:20] hospitality. In any event, he wrote in this book about sort of applying the, the, the Maslow's Hierarchy of [00:27:25] Needs to growing a business. And one of the, one of the chapters talks about. The thing that [00:27:30] drives true word of mouth and, and customer loyalty is [00:27:35] not just meeting the clients, your clients, your customers needs or [00:27:40] wants, but it's meeting that unrecognized need, that unspoken need that maybe they [00:27:45] can't even articulate, but you're coming in and solving that and providing that for, for them [00:27:50] in a way that, that no one else can.
[00:27:52] Corey Quinn: It's like meeting them truly at a very deep level [00:27:55] and, and, and, and creating, as you said. Tremendous value. And when you're able to [00:28:00] do that as a part of your business, as a sort of [00:28:05] institutionalized part of your business, that's where you get things like client loyalty and word of mouth and, and, [00:28:10] and 20% plus year over year growth.
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~All of these things are closely tied together. I think it, it's a matter of actually giving a shit and a lot of people say they do and they don't mean it. It's waking up in the morning and going to bed at night, and when it's good, you believe it. And when it's hard, you believe it. And when the client's telling you they love you, you believe it.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~And when the client's telling you what you did wrong, you still believe it. It's like actually caring. And I, the client smells it a mile away whether you actually care. And that's it. Every person, their salespeople, their account managers, the web developers, the designers, the writers, the account managers, the accounting team, my God, somebody calling to collect money, do they care?~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~If everyone cares, the client feels it and they stay and the business is rewarded with lifetime value. It's it's magic, but it's not rocket science. Yeah, it's also not, I don't think it's talked about enough. I, I actually wrote a whole chapter, it's called the, in my book, about this idea of taking a vertical, vertical focus.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~And the name of the chapter is Give a Damn, right? And it's all about, there you go. Just, you know, the, the requirement today, you can't just choose a vertical based off of the spreadsheet and you know, like, oh, there's a lot of businesses and they spend a lot of money. You're gonna fail. You need empathy.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~You need empathy. Put yourself. I just go back to the challenge of that business owner. That business owner has a lot of demands on their time. They're not just someone to approve a ticket or a sale. They really legitimately are responsible for their whole payroll. They, they have commitments on projects, a lot of liabilities tied to them.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~They have to not only honor their employees, but honor their family and their commitments there. It is wonderfully, fantastically hard to be that entrepreneur. And so when you are, even if it's only about, I just, I'm thinking of something right now. I have a client that, God forbid, had someone else build their website and we were only mildly insulted and.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~Then my team has stayed on it for six months. Tracking the performance of that website, post that launch. And I can say here, 'cause I won't mention names, it's been a fantastically bad disaster for their SEO online presence. We're talking about every mistake in the book that could have been made was made in that thing.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~And we give a shit. Pardon my French. I dunno if I'm allowed to curse on your show. Yeah. Curse away. And my team has drafted full reports and analysis, sent it to the client, texted the client, messaged him on LinkedIn and say, I just want you to know you need to get your web company to go fix these things.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~We did not solicit. I need to fix it. I need to go do it. Yeah. I just, that client's been my client for many, many years and we care about them and we know what he built. I even know what he was trying to achieve by going down this different creative route, and I don't even knock him for it. I think I loved his vision for what he was trying to do.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~I'm gonna challenge whether it's gonna work out the way his vision, what he had in mind. And you know what? When he needs help, we will be right here to help him. Yeah. But it's like tracking it through, not words, but actions all the way through and that. Even if it doesn't pay us today or this year, it will pay just faith.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~If you deposit, deposit, deposit, the return will come tenfold. I don't need to know when or how. I just know that it will, it could come, come in him telling someone at a bar at a conference, you know, these one Firefly folks. They went out of their way to help me solve this problem. I wasn't even, they weren't even paying them any money.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~I'm not, they're not under contract with them for any services and they did this, and that's just, that's a neat thing to do. We don't always do it. We don't always do it perfectly, but I can tell you we do it quite often and I think that's one of the keys that's helped us put us in this position.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~Beautiful. Well, I wanna leave it there with just one last question for you, and I think you've answered this maybe indirectly, but I wanna ask it anyways. Sure. What's your motivation? Oh, I love spending time with my family. And my wife and my son, you know, I cherish my time together. I enjoy working out of my home office, and I get to see my son.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~I've, I've gotten to see my, I've had the joy of seeing my son off to school every single day since, uh, he went to preschool. He's in the ninth grade now, and he gives me a hug before he goes to school. Every single day. Every single day when he comes home, he gives me a hug. Before he goes to start his homework and we, you know, we take four, you know, 3, 4, 5 nice vacations a year and go somewhere fun and enjoy each other's company.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~And I enjoy working really hard so that I can set up the lifestyle that I wanna have with my family. So that's my top priority. Beyond that, it's, I, I enjoy helping people and I've done it for my whole career. And I enjoy the way that we get to support our clients now and our team. So if you look at our vision, and you'll see this on our website, one firefly.com, you know, we call it our, our North Star.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~If you look at our, our North Star for the business, it's to help people feel proud, prosperous, and connected. Right, so it's, you notice when I say people, I'm not saying my customers, I'm not saying my team. I'm saying everybody in our ecosystem. I, I want my team to feel proud, prosperous, and connected.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~Proud. Proud of where they work, proud of the work they do. Prosperous. I want them to make a lot of money and connected. I want them to have wonderful fellowship with each other. And then I'll look at my customers proud, proud of the business. They are the brand. They represent prosperous. I want them thriving and making money and connected.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~I want them connected with their communities. And then you look at the communities that we serve. I want to go into those communities where our customers, where our team. Is located and I wanna help those communities through philanthropy and through giving back. Right? So it's really a matter of believing that, practicing it, acting it.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~Our mission is to help technology businesses grow, right? So it's, we've chosen a niche. Why? 'cause niching is awesome. Why would you not choose a niche? It's so much easier. Go into that space and be the expert. It's just easier. Full stop. So it's, it's really about helping people. And I enjoy getting up every single day, including Mondays going to work.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~And I enjoy, and many of my team will have fun with each other. I mean, we, we cherish work life balance, but we also work really hard. I mean, we'll start early, we'll go late. Generally there's very little weekends, but occasionally there is, and it's just, but when you're doing what you love, it isn't work.~
[00:28:12] Corey Quinn: ~Doesn't feel like work. And I think we, we have something special here at One Firefly. ~
[00:28:12]
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~My guest today is Ariel Cohen.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~She is the CMO of Business 4 1 1, and the co-founder and business partner at Marketing 4 1 1. Ariel has built a multi seven figure agency and we're gonna hear all about how she scaled it. I can't wait to get into it with her. Welcome, Ariel. Thank you, Corey. It's great to be here and I'm excited to be an open book and share everything I've learned with everyone who's listening in.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~Let's go. To start things off, could you just share with us a little bit about Business 4 1 1 and Marketing 4 1 1? What are those businesses, how do they relate to each other and, and whatnot? Yeah, so the 4 0 1 brand overall caters to the roofing and construction industry. Okay. We have a really strong presence in that industry and we've divided our companies in a to a couple different ways.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~So we have Business 4 1 1, which is more of the education brand, where we actually create. SOPs processes first. We have the first ever white label roofing training manuals that thousands of roofers use every day to grow their business and train their teams. So that's on the business. 4 1, 1 side, and then marketing 4 0 1 is exactly what it sounds like.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~It's a full service agency, catering to the roofing and construction space, which one came first? So Business 4 1 1 came first. It was started before I was even involved by my business partner Liz. So she was really the visionary and the brains behind business 4 1 1. And then naturally it grew into its path.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~And then her and I joined forces and created marketing 4 1 1. Got it. And so at what point in the lifecycle of business 4 1 1, did you come around? So I think the company business forum was maybe within its first year or about a year old. Okay. Uhhuh. And then what was happening was they were getting a lot of demand for marketing.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~And so the really, there was a need for, uh, marketing education, marketing services. And so, you know, when you have people knocking at your door enough times, you start to pay attention. Like, Hey, we need to offer this. And so that's kind of where I came in and it made sense because I already had ran agencies before.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~It was not like my first rodeo, so it was kind of the perfect fit. There was already a great audience. We were already niched down and so I came in and applied what I knew on marketing and running agencies to form marketing 4 1 1. So what, tell us a little bit more about your background. What were you doing before you came on to business?~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~4 1 1 started marketing four one. Yeah, so I've definitely been through my fair share of businesses before I found something that works. I was in the music industry when I was a little younger. I had created a music app, an actual app, a technology that was for collaborations within the music industry. So I had to run in the tech scene for a while, and the music.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~Seen. And from there I really started to become invested into learning about marketing because I knew that if I understand marketing, it doesn't matter what business, what industry, that I can make it successful. I knew that marketing and sales was the one key factor in making any, anything you do successful.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~And so I started to really dive into that world and, um, I had, you know, I actually, a lot of people don't know this. I started off years and years ago before I was going to. College at the time as an intern in a marketing agency, and I ended up working my way from intern to becoming a part owner of that agency.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~Oh my goodness. Intern. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. When I ended up leaving that agency, I started my own thing. I had another agency. I was doing great. I was enjoying it, but it was not niched down. The agency was not niched down. And then I, I, but I did have that agency and then that's when I happened to meet my now business partner, Liz and I, I kind of brought everything I was doing over into this joint venture with her because it made sense.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~The timing was right and there was such a, there was so much potential there, and I knew that if I applied my knowledge to this, we could really take off. Okay. Couple quick questions on that. So when you were in college, interning made your way into becoming part owner or partner in that, what type of agency was that?~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~It was just a generalist agency as well, so I've had two generalist. Okay. It was digital. Digital marketing or, or is it design or, yeah. Okay. It was a full digital marketing agency. Okay. And you guys targeted anyone? Uh, generalist agency. Talk more about what that looked like, that agency. It is rough to being a generalist agency.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~I'm gonna be honest. We did have a department where we really had a focus in on dentists. And we had a certain program catered to the dental industry. But we would take anyone and any, everyone that walked in, like if you had a budget and you could afford marketing, I would take you on. So that would mean like beauty brands, food companies, a water company, doctor's offices, gyms, like.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~Everything, roofers, plumbers, home, kitchen, remodeling, and that was really rough. I, I still didn't know about like, niching down at that time. I don't think it was as popular either. Like people weren't expressing it. And so I was working the hard way because what happened was, even though I understood marketing, I, I didn't know the cost per leads in those industries.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~It was different each time. And so I was having trouble scaling because there was turnover because I just couldn't understand fast enough the industries that I was catering to. You were trapped in what I call the generalist trap, right? It was very common in in the, in the world we operate in. And so you left that at a certain point, you started your own agency.~
[00:28:17] Corey Quinn: ~Tell us about your own agency before you merged and created marketing. 4 0 1. Yeah. So when you're first starting your agency and you don't have the right training or mentors to tell you, hey, like start off in a niche, you, you also do what you did before you start off generalist. Sure. So at that point, you know, that was ~ [00:28:20] [00:28:25] [00:28:30] my full-time job was being an agency.
[00:28:32] Corey Quinn: And so I would fo, I would again take on anyone that [00:28:35] could pay, I would take on, and I had a really great book of business. But there wasn't [00:28:40] like a consistent formula, ~right? Everyone needed something a little different. I didn't have my products, uh, like I didn't have things productized in a way that I could actually scale it and have processes behind it.~
[00:28:41] Corey Quinn: And we actually did a lot of media, so I did a lot of video production at the [00:28:45] time, which was really fun. I got to get out front in front with brands and actually like film [00:28:50] videos and do things to enhance their media presence as well. So that was my own agency that I had that [00:28:55] was generalist. So why not just continue doing that?
[00:28:58] Corey Quinn: When you met the, [00:29:00] the owner of business 4 0 1, like why, why not just, you know, continue versus merge in? [00:29:05] I, I could have, but when you see something really great, you have to recognize it. [00:29:10] And she's great at what she does. I mean, from the SOPs and things she's created in the roofing industry, if [00:29:15] anyone knows my business partner Liz, she is really, really fantastic at that.
[00:29:19] Corey Quinn: So when you [00:29:20] see something special and there's something there you have to recognize opportunity and recognize. There's [00:29:25] something you could do. And so it would've been silly for me to turn that away. Funny enough, I probably work [00:29:30] harder now than I did back when I had the other agency, but that's because we're trying to build something [00:29:35] really big.
[00:29:35] Corey Quinn: And so we had a choice. Like, yeah, I was building something. In my opinion, it was good, it was [00:29:40] stable. I had a great income and great balance. But you know, building a small business is [00:29:45] hard, but building a big business is hard too. So it's like choose your path. Sure. And I knew I wanted to go bigger. [00:29:50] Yeah.
[00:29:51] Corey Quinn: Different problems you're solving. What about Liz? What about the business told you that [00:29:55] it was something special? Help us understand what that was. Yeah. Well for one, there was already a great [00:30:00] audience and need and and demand. So that's number one. Right? Anyone would love to walk into a situation where [00:30:05] it's like, for us, a lot of people are like, oh, well leads are, leads are a problem for us.
[00:30:08] Corey Quinn: Right? That's what a business, a lot of [00:30:10] business owners say. For me, I never had that issue. Like we, my problem was I couldn't get to the leads [00:30:15] fast enough 'cause there was so many of them. Yeah. So it just made sense. I mean that like that stood [00:30:20] out to me. There was already demand in a market there and the potential to really.[00:30:25]
[00:30:25] Corey Quinn: Hone in on something that could help people and help us grow to meet our [00:30:30] goals. Yeah. So you came in to Business 4 1 1 and your [00:30:35] primary focus was to launch Marketing 4 1 1. Is that effectively what, what it, what it was to [00:30:40] capture the demand that was being created by the business 4 1 1 clients who are doing [00:30:45] the more of the business operation work.
[00:30:46] Corey Quinn: Is that right? Definitely, yes. Okay. So what did you do? [00:30:50] You got hired and then what did you do? Yeah, so when we, uh, joined up and decided to go all in on [00:30:55] this business venture, I did what I know how to do and that's build marketing agencies. I had done it twice [00:31:00] before, so I kind of had, I knew where I needed to start and [00:31:05] where I needed to go from there.
[00:31:06] Corey Quinn: And that was about four years ago now. Okay. [00:31:10] So what was, what was some of the first things you did to build the agency? Yeah. So, okay. [00:31:15] The first thing I did was obviously market research. I need to know what I'm getting into. [00:31:20] Okay. And then I need to understand what marketing could I offer that is a good fit for this [00:31:25] industry?
[00:31:25] Corey Quinn: 'cause not everything works for every industry and, and they work in different ways. So you have to [00:31:30] understand what is it that people actually need. And so from there I created [00:31:35] like our core offering. You could call it and, um, immediately obviously went [00:31:40] into sales mode because in my opinion, when you're starting, unless you have the luxury of [00:31:45] not being in a rush to make money, you need money to fuel the business.
[00:31:47] Corey Quinn: If you wanna keep going, that's like one of the first [00:31:50] points you need to get to is getting paying clients. So that's immediately what we did. We started selling [00:31:55] and then putting together the product on the backend. Making it better and better [00:32:00] with each client and looking to like, drive some testimonials, you know, see what's happening, [00:32:05] build up those, that, those, that data.
[00:32:07] Corey Quinn: But custom, getting customers and getting people on board [00:32:10] quickly was the most important part.
[00:32:12]
[00:32:33] Corey Quinn: We live in a world [00:32:35] where all of a sudden the secret of vertical specialization is out. There's probably some competitors [00:32:40] in your space. How do you differentiate in this world?
[00:32:43] Corey Quinn: We do have com some competitors. [00:32:45] Um, the one thing that I have found that we do exceptionally well [00:32:50] is we don't put all of our eggs in one basket. So this, I've had [00:32:55] this existential crisis a number of times, um, off of scaling this company where I [00:33:00] look at what our competition does, and they're generally like a single channel agency.
[00:33:04] Corey Quinn: Like, [00:33:05] think about like a social media marketing agency or an SEO o agency, one solution. They do one service for [00:33:10] one industry really, really well. And they have, they just have it easy. Like, and I [00:33:15] say that as an outsider, I'm sure they cry in the closet too. But I, I wish we [00:33:20] could simplify our operations and become more profitable.
[00:33:22] Corey Quinn: But at the same time, our biggest point of [00:33:25] differentiation is we are the only full service in-house agency dedicated to painters. A lot of people [00:33:30] outsource their work, um, or they specialize in one channel. So we have very much [00:33:35] positioned ourselves as the industry expert from across the board. We do not put all your eggs in one basket.
[00:33:39] Corey Quinn: We [00:33:40] treat marketing like the stock market. You need to diversify. I love it. I [00:33:45] think that's a great positioning. By the way, just from my familiarity with the market overall. [00:33:50] Um, we're in a period of sort of the, the economy [00:33:55] and the world where AI is becoming, uh, much more prevalent. It definitely has, uh, [00:34:00] potential to make a, a big impact in agency world providing sort of marketing services, I [00:34:05] think it already has.
[00:34:06] Corey Quinn: What is your perspective on what's going on with ai [00:34:10] and how are you maybe thinking about AI as a, um, from a [00:34:15] strategic perspective as a business owner? So I see two main [00:34:20] categories or two main buckets of people whenever it comes to AI right now. Yeah. Um, those that [00:34:25] have the blinders off and they are looking at every shiny object out there.
[00:34:28] Corey Quinn: They're testing out every [00:34:30] tool, figuring out how they can leverage AI the best, right? Yeah. Um, and then you have those with the blinders on, and [00:34:35] they're not even thinking about ai. They're just running in the opposite direction because they're afraid. Um, [00:34:40] I tend to follow, follow somewhere in the middle, meaning like, I, I [00:34:45] wanna make sure we're looking at tools that aren't just the fly by the night type of companies that [00:34:50] we can actually grow into.
[00:34:51] Corey Quinn: We can leverage, um, and I'm not gonna keep my [00:34:55] blinders on, um, knowing that this is going to impact our, our agency, [00:35:00] the products that we offer in a very large way. Now, when I [00:35:05] look at how we're leveraging it today, uh, one of our core values is be the 20%. [00:35:10] So there's that 80 20 rule. 20% of your efforts generate 80% of your results.
[00:35:14] Corey Quinn: It's [00:35:15] why we don't offer organic social posting, for instance. Uh, there's a lot of marketing agencies that will [00:35:20] do some organic social posts for their clients. They'll do that typical 4th of July. [00:35:25] You know, like, we wish you a happy 4th of July post. Like, that's not generating results for your clients.
[00:35:29] Corey Quinn: Right. [00:35:30] But they're paying you to do that thing. So I, I just look at that as a waste of [00:35:35] time and a waste of money. Mm-hmm. So we just don't do it. Yep. Um, as such, I will not [00:35:40] invest any time into AI if it doesn't move, if it doesn't move the needle in a significant, measurable way. [00:35:45] Yeah. Uh, one of the best ways that I have found to leverage AI is for quality assurance checks.[00:35:50]
[00:35:50] Corey Quinn: So humans in the loop, we need to verify based on hard data [00:35:55] from our client, whether or not the output of our human is up to our client's standards. [00:36:00] AI is very, very good at picking that apart. So that's one thing that we've implemented across the [00:36:05] company at every level is ai, QA processes. That's, uh, immediately impacted [00:36:10] our quality, which is a good thing.
[00:36:11] Corey Quinn: I love it. Um. AI is very good at auditing [00:36:15] data. We leverage it. Every single team has their, their use cases for it. Um, I [00:36:20] do think it's going to impact some channels more than others. So I, I think SEO [00:36:25] organic growth on Google, that's gonna be number one to go paid search, maybe number two, [00:36:30] paid social. Even though Zuck keeps talking about replacing all [00:36:35] marketing agencies with AI over there.
[00:36:36] Corey Quinn: Yeah, I don't think he's gonna have a, a lot of success. Google said that about their, [00:36:40] their platform maybe 15 years ago. So yeah, I didn't see that happening. Um, it's funny, I was talking [00:36:45] to another agency owner last week and he brought up a really interesting concept, which is [00:36:50] these platforms like Google and Meta, they still need to hold somebody accountable.
[00:36:54] Corey Quinn: [00:36:55] They're, they're not gonna be the marketing agency because who's gonna come complaining? They're gonna come complaining to Google or Meta. They don't have [00:37:00] the resources for that. They're not good at that at all. No. So there's still gonna be a time and a place for [00:37:05] agencies. Um, I just think what's gonna happen is unless you d differentiate yourself enough.[00:37:10]
[00:37:10] Corey Quinn: Provide additional value outside of just being a button pusher, lever puller, [00:37:15] your cost that you're gonna be able to charge for those services are gonna go down. When did you hire your first [00:37:20] salesperson? So, relatively recently. And I, I will say that [00:37:25] because our greatest challenge is the fact that we work in a seasonal industry.
[00:37:29] Corey Quinn: [00:37:30] And anybody listening in, if you're considering niching down, consider not [00:37:35] just the fact that you wanna work with these people and that you can generate the returns for them relatively [00:37:40] easily, but also whether the fact that your industry is seasonal. So a seasonality curve looks [00:37:45] like your prospects are extremely busy.
[00:37:48] Corey Quinn: Okay. This time of the year, [00:37:50] our, our prospects aren't thinking about marketing 'cause they're booked out two months. [00:37:55] Um, and as such, our lead volume drops by 75% and that is [00:38:00] difficult to support for a sales team. Now we're exploring all options over here, [00:38:05] outbound, inbound, um, to keep that all steady. And, um, we do recognize that [00:38:10] we are very much gonna have to, you know, um, not just hunt, but also farm.
[00:38:14] Corey Quinn: Um, [00:38:15] so yeah, to answer your question more directly though, that was, um, about this year that we started [00:38:20] hiring sales reps. And so what was happening that caused you to realize, Hey, I need to hire a [00:38:25] salesperson, because why? Because I still own a job. If I, if I went on [00:38:30] vacation with my family, the company would still run, but it wouldn't grow, right?
[00:38:33] Corey Quinn: I, it'd probably die because I [00:38:35] wasn't bringing in new business. So until you get yourself outta sales, [00:38:40] you own a job. All right. I hope you're as inspired as I am about taking a [00:38:45] vertical market approach based on all of those great clips.
[00:38:49] Corey Quinn: Now it's my [00:38:50] turn. And if I was gonna answer the question about why it's important or what, [00:38:55] why it's a benefit to become a vertical market specialist?
[00:38:59] Corey Quinn: Uh, it's because of a [00:39:00] couple things. First off, when you build your business around a vertical market, [00:39:05] you begin to become an expert. It's through repetition. When you have 5, [00:39:10] 10, 15, 20, 30, 50, a hundred, a thousand dental [00:39:15] clients, let's say. then you actually get really good at providing results. Not [00:39:20] only that, you're also also able to produce systems and software and [00:39:25] frameworks and playbooks that you can bring on employees to your team, and they can learn [00:39:30] very quickly and be able to provide value to your agency and most importantly, to [00:39:35] your clients.
[00:39:36] Corey Quinn: Of course, when you have more predictability in your business and more [00:39:40] systems and processes, that leads to a better experience and a better [00:39:45] outcomes for your clients. And of course, when you become known as that [00:39:50] go-to agency, that authority agency, you're of course able to [00:39:55] increase your prices. And what do you do when you have an agency that [00:40:00] has operational efficiency and high premium?
[00:40:03] Corey Quinn: High premium prices? [00:40:05] Well, of course you're gonna generate a lot more profits and what you should do with those profits [00:40:10] is to reinvest in your vertical expertise. [00:40:15] What that means is hire more people, hire better people. You can write [00:40:20] more software, you can, build more systems to help support [00:40:25] you and your ability to serve your clients at scale.
[00:40:28] Corey Quinn: When you do that, [00:40:30] you are leaving your competitors behind. You should also do things [00:40:35] like invest in your sales and marketing. Hire a better sales team. [00:40:40] Hire a better sales leader for your agency. Do better marketing. Shoot. At [00:40:45] Scorpion, we gave away cars. We gave away amazing cookies and trips, and we [00:40:50] had great account managers.
[00:40:51] Corey Quinn: We were able to get the best of the best because we had [00:40:55] built this amazing moat around our agency. This, of course, is what I [00:41:00] call the deep specialization flywheel, and I think it is the most powerful way [00:41:05] for agencies today to continue to attract high ticket clients [00:41:10] and to escape the commoditization of our space, especially in the world [00:41:15] of ai.
[00:41:16] Corey Quinn: Now I want to change the subject and talk about what's next. So [00:41:20] first off, I wanna thank you from the bottom of my heart. It has been so much fun doing this [00:41:25] podcast. I remember my very first episode with Jamie Adams, my counterpart at [00:41:30] Scorpion. He's the Chief Revenue Officer. Uh, I had so much fun. I, I remember [00:41:35] editing that episode.
[00:41:36] Corey Quinn: Uh, I spent probably hours and hours and hours editing that episode, but I wanted it to be [00:41:40] perfect. By the way, if you haven't heard it yet, I highly recommend you check it out. What I've [00:41:45] decided to do with this podcast is I want to change the focus and we're gonna be changing the [00:41:50] focus going forward.
[00:41:51] Corey Quinn: It's going to be less interviews there show. There still should be an [00:41:55] interview or two from time to time, but now I'm gonna focus on two things really. Number [00:42:00] one is opening up some of the. Playbooks that I've been [00:42:05] saving and reserving for my best clients. I'm gonna share that with the audience in an, an [00:42:10] opportunity to help serve you the audience, uh, in a meaningful way.
[00:42:13] Corey Quinn: And I'm [00:42:15] also looking for folks who want to be coached live on the podcast. I'm [00:42:20] looking for you if you have a growth challenge, if you're thinking about vertically [00:42:25] specializing, uh, and you're struggling or maybe you have and you haven't really gotten the results. I would like to [00:42:30] invite you to reach out to me because you might be a great fit [00:42:35] for a coaching session here on the podcast.
[00:42:38] Corey Quinn: So to recap, [00:42:40] we are gonna be focusing on two things. Me teaching you directly through this platform [00:42:45] as well as on YouTube, but also bringing in agency founders who [00:42:50] really want to grow, have a ton of ambition, but maybe are just needing a couple of [00:42:55] ideas to unlock that next level of growth. If that is you, by the way, again, please reach [00:43:00] out to me.
[00:43:01] Corey Quinn: Thanks again for listening. Thanks again for being a part of my world. I [00:43:05] love you and I'm so proud of the work that we've done for our clients, and look [00:43:10] forward to continuing to serve you as my clients and as my audience. [00:43:15] We'll see you soon.
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