DS_Brian K. McRae_106_Full Interview_edited_v1
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[00:00:00] Isolation is the enemy of excellence. So many times I've seen small business owners, commission sales [00:00:05] professionals kind of drift. They try to do things on their own. ~And, um, so ~Joyful accountability is surrounding yourself with people who [00:00:10] believe in you, know what you're trying to build and hold you capable. What are some of the first steps in [00:00:15] building that type of relationship? It's~ finding something to be grateful for, cur, genera or ~gratitude, curiosity, and then generosity. Learning [00:00:20] how to give referrals in the manner you'd like to receive them is one of the best skills a business owner can [00:00:25] pursue.
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[00:00:38] Welcome back to the Deep [00:00:40] Specialization Podcast. Today's guest knows how to build and scale [00:00:45] businesses rooted in real relationships. Brian McRae is a speaker, [00:00:50] a business coach, and the chief Encouragement officer at Giftology. ~I. ~Over the last [00:00:55] 30 years, he's led high performing teams, grown people, first businesses, and [00:01:00] built a standout referral based mortgage practice recognized with the Five [00:01:05] Star Award for 16 straight years.
[00:01:07] I don't know what that is, but that sounds impressive. [00:01:10] He was the youngest GM in company history for a nationwide [00:01:15] electronics brand. Later he led one of St. Louis's fastest growing private companies. [00:01:20] Brian is both a partner in John Lin's Rich Relationship Society [00:01:25] and a student of leadership through programs like the ~John Ma, ~John Maxwell [00:01:30] team and Michael Hyatt through coaching and live events with over 20,000 [00:01:35] attendees.
[00:01:35] Brian helps commission-based pros and founders grow [00:01:40] through meaningful offline conversations Today, we'll unpack ~how his service, ~how service-based [00:01:45] founders can scale through referrals, relationships, and [00:01:50] real connection. Brian, welcome to the show, ~and you did some research there. ~Corey, man, [00:01:55] thank you for that introduction.
[00:01:57] Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited to have you on. [00:02:00] Ditto. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. Thank you so much. So you and I met a couple months ago [00:02:05] at an event that was hosted for on behalf of John Ruland. Mm-hmm. Uh, this [00:02:10] is, a book launch for his book called Beyond Giftology, which, [00:02:15] uh, was, was published post how do you say it?
[00:02:18] It's like after posthumously [00:02:20] Yes. Os yeah, posthumously. So he, ~uh, ~very suddenly passed away in August of [00:02:25] 2024. And, ~uh, ~left a big hole in all of our hearts and, you know, we were there to celebrate [00:02:30] his life, celebrate the book launch, and you and I got, ~uh, ~connected and learned more [00:02:35] about you and the work you're doing, ~uh, ~your fantastic careers we just touched on, [00:02:40] and specifically your work around, you know, relationship based growth [00:02:45] and referrals and that whole sort of department.
[00:02:47] So I'm excited to have you here. I'm excited to ~learn from, learn from you, from your wisdom and to, uh, ~have [00:02:50] the audience do the same. Corey, I've seen where your heart's at. I've gotten a copy of your book. I've heard about your [00:02:55] practice and the fact that you were in the room just to honor John.
[00:02:57] ~It was, uh, ~it was a blessing getting to hear a little bit more about you and, ~uh, ~yeah, [00:03:00] I'm excited for this today. Thank you. So, as I mentioned, ~your, ~your journey [00:03:05] scans, ~uh, corporate part of ~corporate leadership, consumer electronics, and a very successful [00:03:10] referral-based mortgage practice. What drew you to build a business [00:03:15] around relationships?
[00:03:17] Hmm, that's a good question. ~You know, Corey, um, ~the [00:03:20] time that I spent in the corporate world selling B2B ~I, um, ~I was the, ~uh, ~vice president, general [00:03:25] manager for, ~uh, ~computer software training company. And ~um, ~if you go [00:03:30] back several years ago, there was times when people actually needed training for that.
[00:03:33] There wasn't something called YouTube when I was [00:03:35] doing that. ~But, um, ~we were literally business to business. It was cold calling. ~And, um, I was training, you know, ~when I started with the company, I was a [00:03:40] sales manager. We grew to have one of the fastest growing companies in St. Louis. ~And it was an award-winning, it was a, ~it was part of a franchise.
[00:03:44] We were [00:03:45] award-winning, ~um, ~franchisee. And, but what I realized, I mean, when you're [00:03:50] teaching guys how to make a hundred cold calls a day, it gets pretty empty, to be honest with [00:03:55] you. ~Um, and I. ~They would find that they would consume the training and then the [00:04:00] relationship kind of fell. May, they might come back for more later, but it was always, [00:04:05] every time you were, ~you know, from a, uh, creating a, a a a contact or ~creating an opportunity, ~I.~
[00:04:07] It was always having to refill the bucket every [00:04:10] month. And so now I know as an entrepreneur that's always our job, but man, I just, ~uh, it anyway, ~there was kind of this hole and [00:04:15] so I got out of that, ~uh, ~business and, ~um, ~I had ~a, ~a mentor, what became a [00:04:20] mentor of mine. He was a friend. ~I. ~And he had been recruiting me into the mortgage business.
[00:04:22] When I got into the mortgage business. Corey, I didn't know any. [00:04:25] I had a mortgage. I didn't know much about it, but I like the [00:04:30] idea of being an entrepreneur, meaning I could focus on building my business, [00:04:35] but I didn't have to be the full entrepreneur. I didn't need to worry about operations. I didn't have to worry about [00:04:40] benefits.
[00:04:40] I didn't have to worry about the stuff that I wasn't any good at. ~Um, ~and I just got to go out and I thought, you know [00:04:45] what? I had this vision of building a referral based business and, you know, I had some mentors in there ~and, um, you know, ~and [00:04:50] everything that I enjoyed about what I was doing in my previous job, building people, ~um, ~growing [00:04:55] sales professionals and building relationships with them, I tried to bring into my role ~as a, ~as a [00:05:00] mortgage professional.
[00:05:00] And that served me well over time. ~So it was, um, it, it's just more, it is just a more fulfilling way for me. ~That was always part of the vision is. ~To, ~to be able [00:05:05] to build relationships of people that will trust you and refer you time and time again. [00:05:10] So, ~um, ~yeah, that was just really, it was kind of a vision ~and a, ~and a passion ~of ~that I just continued to [00:05:15] pursue.
[00:05:16] ~So many, ~many of the listeners here are agency founders and ~mm-hmm. ~Like any [00:05:20] market worth pursuing, it's noisy. It is very transactional. A lot of [00:05:25] commoditization, ~right. ~Devaluing. Why does [00:05:30] building a practice around relationships matter so much in today's [00:05:35] world? Well, you know, ~um, ~there's a buddy of John's, ~uh, ~you may know the [00:05:40] name John Israel.
[00:05:40] I don't know if you've met John or not, but he was one of John Bruin's. Dear friends, [00:05:45] he talks about three types of loyalty. He talks about contractual [00:05:50] loyalty, ~um, ~which is based off of a written agreement. ~And then he talks about. Um, ~he talks about habitual loyalty, ~so ~things that people [00:05:55] do out of habit.
[00:05:56] And then he talks about emotional loyalty and that's the one that's [00:06:00] the deepest ~and um, you know, ~whether it's agency, ~I. ~Sales or ~whether it is, you know, ~the mortgage [00:06:05] world. ~I mean, candidly, ~it doesn't get any more transactional or commodity based than a mortgage rate fees. [00:06:10] No, it's very, it's very commoditized.
[00:06:12] Yes. So the question [00:06:15] becomes, you know, ~where, you know, so ~building relationships, you can go and try and build a relationship with a customer, but it's a one-off thing. [00:06:20] But if you can build ~a, a, ~a relationship with an upstream referral partner. That comes across your [00:06:25] ideal client often and trusts you like none other.
[00:06:27] And there's a deep emotional [00:06:30] loyalty from that shoulder industry. It changes the game. And so, [00:06:35] you know, that's ~my, ~my best referral partner was a financial advisor. And it's just, ~it was ~because of deep [00:06:40] emotional loyalty. It wasn't habit, it wasn't contractual. ~Um, anyway, ~so it was, that [00:06:45] was, it's the most fulfilling way.
[00:06:46] And candidly, that third party [00:06:50] validation. Provides a lot of space to [00:06:55] create margin, whether it's emotional margin, whether it's, you know, fighting the compression of [00:07:00] pricing, ~um, ~you get a few more. That trust just goes a [00:07:05] long way. ~Um, ~at least that's what I've found. So, ~um, ~whether it's been in the coaching space or [00:07:10] whether it's been in the mortgage space, ~it just, ~that trust when it conveys over one, the sales cycle is [00:07:15] shorter.
[00:07:15] Two. ~Um, you, ~you have the ability, you're not shopped as much. ~Um, ~and people just [00:07:20] listen to the advice because they feel like ~the, ~the relationship's been curated by the person that referred you. [00:07:25] So, yeah. ~So how, how do you, uh, and I don't want to use, I, I, I hesitate to use the word, but I, I will. But how do you create.~
[00:07:26] ~I was gonna say engineer, but ~how do you create emotional loyalty? How do you skip the first [00:07:30] two steps, which are more transactional first one's? Transactional or second one's habitual and third [00:07:35] one's, you know, emotional. Like how do you get to that emotional loyalty? You know, Corey, I [00:07:40] think, ~um, ~that it's a great question and I think that's the one that is the age old.
[00:07:44] And it really [00:07:45] comes down to you, you, you and I, you know, I see books in your background and, ~uh, ~we've had some [00:07:50] conversation about some great books, ~but. Um, ~Zig Ziglar's, one of my favorites, and he said, if you can just help enough people get what they want, you [00:07:55] can have everything you want. ~And so, you know, ~I learned early on that if you can focus on [00:08:00] serving the shoulder industries and figure out what challenges they're having, ~you know, that's where, you know, every, ~every one of [00:08:05] the ambassadors that I had from my practice, I knew something about them personally.
[00:08:09] I knew [00:08:10] what their biggest business challenges were. And I was always looking for ways to add value to [00:08:15] help them solve a business challenge or a personal challenge, or to help them grow [00:08:20] in ways that my competitors weren't. ~So that was the, that was the big component, is figuring out what I could do to add, and you'll hear the term, you, you didn't wanna use the word engineer, and I don't wanna use the word add, the phrase add value, but that's truly what it is.~
[00:08:22] It's focusing in on the right [00:08:25] questions, it's focusing in on the right heart. And figuring out how you can serve [00:08:30] versus, ~you know, ~just trying to take, ~so you, you mentioned yeah, adding value, ~but also having ~an understanding or, or a, ~a connection through understanding their [00:08:35] personal context. Maybe some of the challenges that they're, they're struggling.
[00:08:38] ~How would you go about, or ~how does one go about. [00:08:40] Building a relationship with someone in a shoulder industry that has the kind ~of, sort ~of [00:08:45] awareness or, uh, is as, as, as a lot of the sort of the social [00:08:50] standing or credibility that you want to, they're an ideal person ~to, ~to get connected with and to build [00:08:55] a relationship with.
[00:08:55] ~How, ~what are some of the first steps in building that type of relationship? ~Um, ~Corey, I mean, [00:09:00] take a look at how we met. I mean, truth of the matter is we both borrowed some trust [00:09:05] from John Ruland. You were in a room. I was in a room and it was just, this is [00:09:10] gonna sound so simplistic, but there's always three things that I start out with when I [00:09:15] approach any conversation.
[00:09:16] Gratitude, looking for something that I can find a way to [00:09:20] thank somebody for. So that's the first question I asked you. How did you know John? I was looking for [00:09:25] something to connect to John. I wanted context, relational context. And [00:09:30] then you started sharing a story, how you were a big fan, and if I remember correctly, you said ~you, ~you'd actually never met [00:09:35] John.
[00:09:35] ~So, um, basically yeah, that's, I, that's my point. Yeah. So, yeah. Um, and I was just, I was fascinated by that you're in a room because the guy made such a big impact that made an impact on me. So anyway, it was gratitude. ~So I just appreciated you sharing the story. Thank you for sharing your heart. And then it was just asking [00:09:40] great questions.
[00:09:40] Always show up with the ability to ask great questions. So, ~um, ~I'm a big [00:09:45] fan of building a portfolio of quality questions just so that when you show up at a [00:09:50] place that you're always armed. ~Um, ~and I've spent, I've bought [00:09:55] books and it just having a great question. 'cause curiosity will open [00:10:00] doors, the judgment slams shut every time.
[00:10:03] And so having great questions. [00:10:05] Love that. And then, and then the one thing that, ~uh, ~that I loved about John was generosity. Figuring out a way to [00:10:10] be. Be generous. John did it with, you know, he started an entire [00:10:15] relationship agency around gifting. But uh, that's gifting is just one form of [00:10:20] generosity. 'cause honestly, you know, the people that were in that room today, it wasn't John's [00:10:25] gifting, it was John's generosity.
[00:10:27] Yeah. Gifting was just one expression of [00:10:30] generosity. But John was there. I mean, people, John always made you feel better [00:10:35] after a conversation with him. That's generosity. And so anyway, to [00:10:40] answer your question, it was those, it's those three things when you show up and building relationships, it's finding something to be [00:10:45] grateful for, ~cur, genera or ~gratitude, curiosity, and then generosity.
[00:10:48] I love that, by the [00:10:50] way. That's, it's very clear and also actionable. When, ~when you, ~you mentioned about asking great questions that you [00:10:55] actually recommend people have a portfolio of great questions. What are ~your some of, some, ~some of [00:11:00] your favorite go-to questions? ~Um, you know, first of all, by the way, this is just a book.~
[00:11:01] There's a book out there, ~um, ~captivate. [00:11:05] It's one of my favorites, but she just, you know, what's the most exciting thing you're working on? ~Yeah. ~There's [00:11:10] conversations are excited about ~Yeah. ~Whatcha excited about? Yeah. What's the big project? You're, yeah, it's [00:11:15] rather than, you know, everybody starts with How's the weather?
[00:11:17] You know, what do you do? But I think, yeah, where are you from? Yeah. [00:11:20] Yeah, exactly. And there's all of that stuff, which is. You know, I think it's a requirement, and I'm not saying to throw that [00:11:25] stuff out, but I think if you can elevate the quality of your questions, you can elevate the [00:11:30] quality of the conversation.
[00:11:31] And when conversations flow, ~um, you know, ~relationships tend to [00:11:35] form. So, yeah. I love that. So you have mentioned ~in, ~in previous [00:11:40] interviews that you believe that helping your best referral partners [00:11:45] grow their business. Is the best way to, one of the best ways to grow your business. Can you talk more [00:11:50] about that?
[00:11:50] ~Um, yeah. ~Well you mentioned an event that, uh, you know, it was, um, if you think about it, ~so ~back just a little context [00:11:55] here. Mortgage business 2010. ~Um, ~and this is actually how John and I [00:12:00] met. So I'm was in St. Louis at the time and, ~um, ~been in the mortgage industry probably [00:12:05] about, it was about eight years at that point.
[00:12:07] And I'd had some success actually. I was doing [00:12:10] well. ~Um, ~but I'm sitting at my kitchen counter and I just remember hearing the words. ~Um, and, uh, ~from a faith [00:12:15] perspective, I believe it was the Holy Spirit speaking to me, Corey. But, uh, the point is I heard I just, this, these two words [00:12:20] inspire people, ran through my head and I didn't really know what to do with it.
[00:12:22] Shortly thereafter, I was reading a book, or [00:12:25] I heard an interview. I called a guy and he encouraged me to start an event. He had written a book and it was a guy [00:12:30] named Michael Mayer. and Michael, uh, uh, encouraged me to start an event and I did. ~And ~[00:12:35] so ~the, ~the point is, if you think back to 2011, I was in the mortgage business, [00:12:40] I was in a relationship referral based business.
[00:12:43] Now, many of your [00:12:45] listeners might not remember that time. They may not have the gray hair that I have, but back in that [00:12:50] time, ~uh, ~the real estate industry was in the tank. The financial services industry was in the [00:12:55] tank. You know, that was, uh, the, the, the joke, 401k became a 2 0 1 [00:13:00] k. ~Um, ~the stock market was bad.
[00:13:01] The real estate market was bad. Fortunately for me, in the [00:13:05] company that I was working at, the industry interest rates were his, you know, at that time, at historical lows, we were helping a lot of [00:13:10] people and I just felt this desire, my referral partners were [00:13:15] struggling. And so I got encourage. I just thought, how can I start an event to help them?
[00:13:19] [00:13:20] And that was the idea. And so I just started building. Started talking about building [00:13:25] relationships, I started pulling books together. That's how I met, you know, got involved with John Maxwell. ~Um, I just started talking about, ~[00:13:30] it was really three basic criteria, Corey. So once a month we had people showing up free [00:13:35] event, and we were teaching 'em how to build a referral based business, ~uh, ~around relationships.
[00:13:39] ~Um, ~we [00:13:40] were talking about productivity and leadership, three kind of pillars that every. [00:13:45] Sales professional, founder, entrepreneur wants to get better, they [00:13:50] wanna be more productive, they wanna be a better leader, and they want better relationships. So [00:13:55] that's what we focused on. And I ran that event for, ~um, ~well, 12 years.
[00:13:59] And ~we had, ~we had [00:14:00] over 24,000 attendees at a free event. And the point was, provide value to them. [00:14:05] It was free. So ~they had, if they, ~you had to provide value, give them content that would make a [00:14:10] difference, that would inspire them to go. Do something that they wouldn't have done had they not [00:14:15] shown up. And so, ~um, ~that's what we did.
[00:14:17] And so when you asked, you know, how do you add value? ~It's, um, ~[00:14:20] it's trying to give people, whether it's personal development, whether it's attacking their business or [00:14:25] candidly, sometimes it's just listening. You know, what's your biggest challenge right now? ~What have you, ~what have you tried? What [00:14:30] are you thinking about doing next?
[00:14:31] Or just three kind of great questions that you just opened doors. [00:14:35] That you will hear things that trying to pitch your latest product or [00:14:40] service, just, you know, it's usually in one ear, out the other. So, so you're, a [00:14:45] lot of the, the, the stuff that you talk about is about really doubling down on things [00:14:50] like calls, just having conversations with people, doing [00:14:55] one-on-ones, going to live events, hosting live events, like you're saying.
[00:14:57] ~Why, ~why are these tactics [00:15:00] so relevant today? ~Um, well. ~There's ~a, ~a phrase that I use with my coaching client, ~convers ~[00:15:05] connections plus conversations equal contracts. ~So I don't know much. I mean, it, it, ~for most small business owners, [00:15:10] entrepreneurs, sales professionals, it usually requires some sort of conversation.
[00:15:14] [00:15:15] And if you want referrals, ~it's got to, ~it's gonna involve. Conversations, ~um, ~or [00:15:20] people hearing your voice and ~or ~wanting to listen to your voice. So I'm a big proponent [00:15:25] of events and finding out a way to do a one to many. I love events. ~Um, ~it's a [00:15:30] phenomenal way and, you know, you've got a great strategy here with your podcast.
[00:15:33] It's a one to many [00:15:35] strategy where people get to hear your heart and how you serve people. ~By, you know, and so it's, anyway, ~one to [00:15:40] many strategies are awesome. ~Um, but it, you know, just trying to drive to, to, so ~when I was running events, ~it, ~people would show up and I [00:15:45] just wanted to turn the table. If I had a financial advisor ~or, ~or one of the top real estate agents in the [00:15:50] area show up, I wanted them to hear something or see something, or feel something in the [00:15:55] room ~that brought them, ~that made them open, or maybe even reach out to me.
[00:15:59] Versus, [00:16:00] so I was trying to, honestly, I was trying to flip the table so that they would actually wanna have a conversation with me [00:16:05] or want to call me or want to spend time with me. So that was my strategy around [00:16:10] events. ~Um, ~and it just, you know, when you can provide enough value, and again, I just come back to Zigs quote, you know, if [00:16:15] you help them, help enough people get what they want and improve and add value, then you [00:16:20] can have everything you want.
[00:16:21] And that was the real blessing behind the event. Yeah. When it comes to [00:16:25] conversations, maybe from a tactical perspective. For folks listening, ~um, ~how should they approach [00:16:30] conversations? Maybe they're, they don't have their own live of live event. Maybe they go to an industry conference once, once a [00:16:35] year. But beyond that, like what would ~it ~be a way to really bring this to life?
[00:16:39] You know, by the [00:16:40] way, there's nothing new under the sun here, Corey. So all this stuff. Yeah. I'm just, I just curate [00:16:45] stuff. So, ~um, ~you've probably heard of Bob Berg ~and, ~and John David, man. Yes. They wrote a book called The [00:16:50] Go-Giver. ~Um, ~and Bob, I think ~came up ~was the one originally came up with Ford Family, occupation, recreation and [00:16:55] Dreams.
[00:16:55] That's a framework anybody can remember. You walk into a room, [00:17:00] it's easy ~to, ~to start asking. You know, when you're into a conversation, you pick up the phone with a [00:17:05] relationship, you know, tell me about your family, you know, ~uh, ~occupation, ~what's the, you know, ~what's the most exciting [00:17:10] project you're working on?
[00:17:10] ~Any big goal, you know, ~any big goals this year. Just anything to get them excited to talk. ~I. ~[00:17:15] Recreation is easy, you know, what do you do for fun? Just, you know, ~any big, ~anything fun planned with the family this summer, [00:17:20] you'll hear people open up about, I just had a conversation with a guy this morning where I'm doing a workout [00:17:25] this morning and I said, Hey, what do you got planned?
[00:17:26] Anything fun planned for the summer? And I heard about 10 minutes about how he's [00:17:30] taking a trip to his kids at Colorado and he is gonna be hiking. I know more about him by asking one [00:17:35] question, and candidly, he got to talk when people get to talk. [00:17:40] My gosh. They just, if they feel, when they feel like somebody's listening, it deepens the [00:17:45] relationship.
[00:17:45] So just, uh, so anyway, and then dreams and aspirations, ask people what, ~uh, ~what they're [00:17:50] focused on, what they're, you know, what they're trying to build and, and things just open up. So, [00:17:55] and then, and then again, the gratitude, the curiosity and generosity, build those [00:18:00] into that forward framework. The way, ~um, ~one of the people, one of my mentors, ~uh, ~Dan Mar [00:18:05] talks about, it's not what's new, it's what's true.
[00:18:08] Yeah. You know, and I, and, [00:18:10] and I'm okay with because, you know, these things can be, ~you know, ~first said, ~you know, ~[00:18:15] decades ago, but as long as they're still true, that's what matters. And it's good for us all to [00:18:20] remember this. ~I'm, I'm, by the way, ~for the people who can't see me, I'm taking a ton of notes. I got Ford, I got all these things.
[00:18:24] 'cause I, Corey, you know, um, you may, Jeffrey Gier was a [00:18:30] good friend of John's as well. Yes. I got to hear Jeffrey. It's funny, ~I, ~I told him this story. One of the [00:18:35] favorite things I heard, Jeffrey's just full of wisdom. ~But, um, ~he was doing a presentation once and ~he said, ~he said, you [00:18:40] know what, I'm not gonna share anything new with you here today.
[00:18:42] And he said, when you hear this, I don't want you. It's, the question isn't, [00:18:45] how well do you know this? The question is how well do you do it? So when [00:18:50] you hear something, it's not how well you know it. 'cause that's, whenever we hear this, that's not intellectual knowledge. Right, [00:18:55] exactly. So everybody says wisdom, you know, our, our knowledge is, is, is [00:19:00] power.
[00:19:00] And it's really, ~it's not, ~it's, it's applied knowledge is power, so, right. The, ~uh, ~that's [00:19:05] right. ~Anyway, yeah, no, it's, it's, ~it reminds me of, ~uh, ~the way I like to read books is slowly with, you know, writing in the [00:19:10] margins and dog earing pages and going, you know, applying all the things versus how many books can I read [00:19:15] this summer?
[00:19:15] Absolutely. I think you've called well-managed database. [00:19:20] Contact database, one of the best insurance policies for commission-based [00:19:25] pros and certainly for entrepreneurs ~and, ~and leaders as well. Why is that? Well, it's real [00:19:30] simple. If you don't, what's your answer? If relationships are the currency, I, [00:19:35] I'm not kidding.
[00:19:35] This is, the stories that I'm gonna share with you are actually painful. [00:19:40] You know, when I first started coaching years ago, I was working with a sales professional. She'd been in the [00:19:45] industry. She was top notch. She was incredibly competent. [00:19:50] She was going out into the marketplace just trying to demonstrate her competence.
[00:19:53] And I, she was struggling. [00:19:55] And when you go out, just trying to say how good you are and how fast you are, [00:20:00] what kind of service you provide, honestly, that's just a race to the bottom. And I just was asking her questions. I said, so [00:20:05] you've been doing this for 20 years. You've had some success. You're struggling right now.
[00:20:08] I said, let's go back [00:20:10] and let's take a look at the basics. How many people are in your database? She says, what do you mean? I said, well, how many [00:20:15] people do you know in the in, I mean, you've been doing this ~for 20 years, if you. C show me that you've been doing business ~for 20 years. She had less than [00:20:20] 200 names that she knew in her database after 20 years.[00:20:25]
[00:20:25] And if you want to just continue to grind that, there's no you a database, a [00:20:30] list is the currency. ~That is the inch. Whenever you're struggling.~ You know, when I have a car wreck, I've got an insurance [00:20:35] policy. Whenever you have a business wreck, you've got your insurance policy is your relationships. And if you [00:20:40] don't keep track of them.
[00:20:42] What are you gonna do? So, yeah, a while [00:20:45] ago I was also in financial services. I was a financial advisor for [00:20:50] Morgan Stanley, Dean Witter. Yeah. Uh, back when Dean Witter was still part of the name. They, yeah, I was gonna say [00:20:55] before Dean decided to write off into the Sun, I don't even remember what happened there.
[00:20:58] I don't either. Haven't done Dean [00:21:00] Dean Witter in a while. Yeah. And I was there for a bit and I was. [00:21:05] I was, my shoulder was tapped. I was a junior broker, and I was tapped to go join a senior [00:21:10] broker who was being recruited by UBS, a big Swiss bank, ~uh, ~to [00:21:15] leave Morgan Stanley to bring the business over to UBS.
[00:21:18] The reality is, is that [00:21:20] they, and the, the senior partner that I was a part of, their team, we did go to [00:21:25] UBS, ~um. Competitor of Morgan Stanley. ~The reason why the senior partner got a big payout for going over to [00:21:30] UBS was because of his Rolodex. People he knew. It didn't necessarily mean that everyone that [00:21:35] was a client of Morgan Stanley was coming over, but he had established an amazing set of [00:21:40] relationships and a great reputation in the market.
[00:21:42] So much so that this other competitor is willing to pay a [00:21:45] premium to have them on their team and not the competitors. Exactly. That there's your [00:21:50] insurance. There's a, that's a better story of any That's, that's a positive one. That's a positive versus the negative one. APositive. [00:21:55] Yes, absolutely. So. ~Um, ~you, you both use both [00:22:00] automation and technology, but when it comes to enhancing [00:22:05] relationships, ~um, ~you can't just rely on technology and automation.
[00:22:09] Why not? ~Uh, ~by the [00:22:10] way, this is just an opinion, but I don't think, you know, it's one [00:22:15] thing to. Come up with, and, and please know, I know where many of your customers are and I don't [00:22:20] wanna say that advertising, I, I wanna set the advertising and the product aside for a second. 'cause that is a great [00:22:25] advertising, works well to acquire, to create traffic.
[00:22:29] ~I, ~I totally [00:22:30] respect that. But the business development side of a business when it [00:22:35] comes to technology, I think we have to figure out how to use technology to free up our time [00:22:40] so that we can do more of what's happening right here. I mean, we're using [00:22:45] technology ~and ~in a way to enhance a relationship, so.
[00:22:48] I think we use [00:22:50] technology ~to, to to, ~to be able to slow down and automate things that [00:22:55] don't require our talent. And I mean, truthfully, Corey, I mean you're probably seeing it in your industry and ~with, ~[00:23:00] with your clients. I mean, we're hearing ~a, there's not ~a, there's not a single small business owner, commission sales [00:23:05] professional business owner, and I don't care what size the business is, whether it's a one person shop or whether it's a [00:23:10] Fortune 500 company.
[00:23:11] Everybody's talking about ai. And so here's my take [00:23:15] on technology, please. Technology should free you up so that you can do [00:23:20] focus on the new ai, which is authenticity and intentionality. That's, in my [00:23:25] opinion, the new ai. And because I think that's where [00:23:30] relationships will be built when you're authentic and when you're intentional.
[00:23:33] And that's what I loved about John. [00:23:35] I mean, John was as authentic and as intentional as you could possibly [00:23:40] imagine. ~I mean. There's not a soul in that. I mean, think about it, he, ~John wasn't even there. Couple hundred people showed up in a room in Austin, Texas [00:23:45] in the middle of March for a book launch to celebrate a guy why [00:23:50] he was authentic and he was intentional with his relationships.
[00:23:53] Yeah. [00:23:55] So anyway, ~long, long, ~long answer to a short question about ~real, you know, ~technology, but ~it's, ~it's to free up time so [00:24:00] we can be real with the relationships that we have. ~Yeah, it's almost, ~it's almost a gift, ~uh, ~in that [00:24:05] this amazing technology ~is ~allows us, or enables us, or provides an opportunity for [00:24:10] us to be much more authentic and intentional with the people that matter in our lives.
[00:24:14] So we don't, [00:24:15] we're not distracted by these things that now are hopefully being managed or at [00:24:20] least supported by software and technologies. Yeah. So it's, ~um, ~and I think [00:24:25] that's gonna be the, the, as technology, as technology continues to. [00:24:30] Evolve. I mean, ~uh, ~AI's gonna have a significant impact. And in my humble [00:24:35] opinion, the one thing it won't be able to replace [00:24:40] is that human connection and the ability to build that third [00:24:45] level of loyalty, that emotional loyalty, which only comes through relationships, it's [00:24:50] trust.
[00:24:51] And so that's where I think, ~uh, ~we're gonna have to [00:24:55] learn to embrace. Technology, we're gonna have to learn to leverage it to free up our time so that [00:25:00] we can build relationships. I love it. ~Uh, ~so you run a coaching program [00:25:05] and it's built around vision metrics and momentum, something you call [00:25:10] joyful accountability.
[00:25:11] ~Uh, ~what does that look like in practice? ~Um, ~yeah, that's from the [00:25:15] boardroom and, ~uh, ~that's called the momentum system. ~And, ~and you know, I could ~give you this, ~give you a long story [00:25:20] behind it, but it's vision I. It's planning metrics, time allocation, and joyful accountability. I [00:25:25] think your specific question was around joyful accountability and, ~um, ~the best answer I can [00:25:30] give you is, ~um, ~a relationship guy.
[00:25:31] There's a gentleman, ~um, ~by the name of Aaron Walker. Aaron's a [00:25:35] successful, ~um, ~business owner, ~um, and I could go on. He, ~he was a mentor. I spent about seven years ~in a, ~in a [00:25:40] mastermind group with Aaron, which I've patterned the boardroom. The boardroom is literally patterned after my [00:25:45] time. ~With, um, ~with, Aaron Walker.
[00:25:46] so you asked about joyful accountability. So I, I would see, [00:25:50] I would see Aaron once a week and, ~um, ~we have these little things called [00:25:55] spotlight sessions and Joyful accountability Looks like somebody knowing you well [00:26:00] enough that know that what you're trying to build and holding you capable of it.[00:26:05]
[00:26:05] He looked at me at one point I was running successful mortgage practice. I had joined his group 'cause [00:26:10] I said I wanted to build a coaching practice. And ~um, ~he just looked at me once. And by the way, ~I'm in the front of, ~I'm [00:26:15] in a room full ~of, ~of, ~uh, ~10 other entrepreneurs myself. So there's 12 of us on [00:26:20] Zoom.
[00:26:20] And he just looks at me and he says, McCray. Do you want to [00:26:25] coach? And that's exactly what I did, Corey. I just kind of looked there and I had to give everybody an answer. [00:26:30] And Big A wasn't asking me because he was upset with me that I wasn't doing it. He was [00:26:35] holding me capable of what he thought I could do and what I told him I [00:26:40] wanted to build.
[00:26:40] And so I learned a very important lesson from Big A around joyful [00:26:45] accountability. And that was isolation is the enemy of excellence.~ And ~so many times I've seen small business [00:26:50] owners, commission sales professionals kind of drift. They try to do things on their own. ~And, um, so ~joyful accountability is [00:26:55] surrounding yourself with people who believe in, you know, what you're trying to build and hold you capable.
[00:26:59] [00:27:00] So joyful accountability. It's got a negative connotation, but I like to say capable, ~um, ~you know, holds you [00:27:05] capable. And that's what big, I like that. I've never heard that. That is much more empowering than it [00:27:10] is. That's what joyful accountability is. It's the empowering side of accountability [00:27:15] versus the negative side of accountability.
[00:27:17] I love that. ~Um, ~and so one of the ways that. [00:27:20] You help founders break through this isolation, like that enemy ~of ~of [00:27:25] excellence is ~by, ~by surrounding themselves, who are holding hold each other capable. [00:27:30] I will tell you. ~Yeah. The, so ~the short side of it is I spent six, seven [00:27:35] years ~with, ~with Aaron. ~Um, ~and it was when you surround yourself [00:27:40] with other professionals who are growth-minded, who are.[00:27:45]
[00:27:45] Are abundance focused, not scarcity [00:27:50] focused. They wanna listen. You build relationships, they hear things from you, you hear from [00:27:55] things from them. There's nothing that replaces that. I think, ~um, ~I think it's a requirement to be, I [00:28:00] mean, from a business building standpoint, being in communities like that are game changers.[00:28:05]
[00:28:05] And, and where do you recommend folks find those type of communities? Oh, [00:28:10] ask. ~Um, ~so, you know, honestly, big a's got a great community, iron sharpens [00:28:15] iron. ~Uh, ~Derek Champagne's running that now. ~Um, um, ~if anybody's interested in the boardroom, I do run, ~uh, ~I've got ~a, ~a [00:28:20] small boardroom, so I'm putting that out there.
[00:28:22] That wasn't the purpose of me bringing that up, but, ~uh, ~[00:28:25] the point is that, yeah, no, that's great. But yeah, with me, the, ~um, ~but yeah, the [00:28:30] boardroom and, ~uh, ~talk to other people, talk to small business owners who are successful and. You'll find that most of [00:28:35] them are spending time with other like-minded professionals.
[00:28:37] You talk about the four Cs, competence, [00:28:40] communication, consistency, and collaboration. These are the keys to amazing service. [00:28:45] How can others, and you have, you, you, you're, you've got a topnotch [00:28:50] research firm helping you with this. So that framework that you see [00:28:55] there, Corey, and you'll hear me use the term, there's a lot of frameworks that I try to utilize to [00:29:00] help me understand how to communicate.
[00:29:02] And so those four C's were really [00:29:05] built for my mortgage team, and I think they'll work for any really practice. [00:29:10] But, ~um, ~with our, ~in the, ~in the mortgage space, our upstream, our best [00:29:15] shoulder industry, one of them is real estate agents. So ~we were, ~we were always trying to [00:29:20] show them how those four Cs impacted, and specifically collaboration is one of the things that [00:29:25] we really focused in there.
[00:29:25] And I think when you can collaborate with. Your [00:29:30] referral partners, your upstream referral partners, and your downstream referral partners. ~To be honest with you, when you can do that with those shoulder industries, ~it changes the game, [00:29:35] but it just kind of gives you a framework for talking about what you do and how you do it.
[00:29:39] So yeah, that [00:29:40] was just simply, and it really is the collaboration side of it, ~which, ~which is where the relationship is. A byproduct [00:29:45] of relationship. Back in the day I was in BNI, which is a Stands for [00:29:50] Business Networking International, and I go to these weekly breakfasts ~and. ~[00:29:55] The IT sometime, most of the time ~it wasn't, uh, ~it wasn't communicated, but the expectations that you would [00:30:00] come with leads for other people and it [00:30:05] felt very transactional.
[00:30:07] It was not, it was more of an obligation [00:30:10] versus a, you know, opportunity to really show up with value. How [00:30:15] do you avoid that type of dynamic in a referral based group? ~Um, ~by [00:30:20] the way, I am also A BNI, former BNI member, and I spent several years in [00:30:25] there. ~Um, ~I learned 2, 2, 2, 2 things I love doing in there. One, I loved running it [00:30:30] because I agree it, ~uh, ~can be with any organization.
[00:30:33] It can get transactional, not [00:30:35] relational. And, ~um, ~so I loved being the running the group and I loved being the [00:30:40] education coordinator. You probably remember those two positions. So yeah, I do. You can imagine as [00:30:45] a, as a Chief Encouragement officer, it's one of the things that I loved doing was I loved encouraging others.
[00:30:49] [00:30:50] So, ~but, um, ~you know, I think that the transactional side is that, you know, and that's one of the [00:30:55] things ~that, ~that when John and I were collaborating about the course that we put together. Also the [00:31:00] community we put together is making sure that you're not being generous for [00:31:05] transactions, you're being generous around the relationship, the intent, the [00:31:10] thought, ~um, ~and you know, all too often, and by the way, it's easy to [00:31:15] get transactional.
[00:31:16] And so the best way to do that or stay away from that [00:31:20] is again, to focus on what you can give. One of the things that we would always, that we [00:31:25] talk about inside the rich Relationship society is figuring out how can you give, how can you be in abundance? [00:31:30] How can you create for other people? I think it's one of the most, and one thing I [00:31:35] learned from BNI, ~um, ~my best referral partner I met at BNI, ~um, ~we were in BNI for [00:31:40] about a year together, and we got to know each other, but then it became, this [00:31:45] was the key, at least for me.
[00:31:47] How can I give more referrals than I receive? [00:31:50] If you can figure out how to give referrals and [00:31:55] whether it's connections, you know, whatever the case may be, ~if you can, ~if you can put other [00:32:00] people in contact with. Influential people [00:32:05] in your database. It's a game changer. So if you can learn how to do that, it changes the game.
[00:32:09] And that's [00:32:10] what happened. ~Um, you know, ~Kevin and I just got to the point where we were trying to figure out how we could out give each [00:32:15] other. ~Oh, ~that is an amazing relationship. ~So, um, ~so learning how to give referrals in the manner you'd like to receive them [00:32:20] is one of the best skills, a~ um, a, a, ~a business owner can pursue.
[00:32:24] [00:32:25] That's awesome. Give, give referrals in the manner you would like to receive them. That's beautiful. [00:32:30] So you mentioned now John Rowland's Rich Relationship Society. You're the Chief Encouragement [00:32:35] Officer. Could you tell more, tell us more about what that community is and what's the, what's the leading [00:32:40] philosophy?
[00:32:40] How does it work? Yeah. ~Um, ~do you mind if I share the story, how it all came about? Please love that. [00:32:45] So, um, I mentioned earlier the event that I was running. So I ran an event in for [00:32:50] 12 years. Now, John and I happened to be in the same geographical location we were both, John would say [00:32:55] he lived near St.
[00:32:56] Louis and I was living near St. Louis. So, um, one of [00:33:00] the sponsors of the event knew John pretty well. ~And, um, ~and when you start getting a couple hundred people in the room and you're [00:33:05] trying to be the chief encouragement officer for a couple hundred people every month. That puts a [00:33:10] lot of pressure. Every once in a while you're looking for a good speaker to come in and encourage them to take a little [00:33:15] pressure off.
[00:33:15] ~So that's the truth. Yeah. Um, ~and so we were blessed to have some people showing up and when you get that many people [00:33:20] showing up in a room, other people wanna speak. Well, I had been connected to [00:33:25] John and I got to know John. Unfortunately I didn't get him there before his book released. ~Um, ~[00:33:30] so we had to wait a little bit.
[00:33:31] I did, ~uh, ~invited him. He spoke at the event. ~And the, um, anyway, so ~he [00:33:35] came, spoke at the event. During that, we started talking and he got to feel what was going on in [00:33:40] the room and, you know, building, you know, having a room full ~of, ~of entrepreneurs that were focused on [00:33:45] relationships, productivity, and being better leaders.
[00:33:47] He felt the energy in the room and it just opened [00:33:50] up some doors with some conversations with his team. About two [00:33:55] years after he spoke at the event, ~um, ~his team reached out to me and said, Hey, we want to. [00:34:00] We love what you're doing. I had built ~a, ~a course I'd given them access to it. By the way, it all [00:34:05] started with the question, what do what, what's the most exciting thing you're working on?
[00:34:08] We had exchanged that [00:34:10] kind question between each other. I had a course that I was working on. I shared it with them just to [00:34:15] get ~their, ~their professional opinion on it, and they loved it. Called me two years later and said, we wanna [00:34:20] partner with you. ~Um, ~John's organization ~is, ~is. His relationship [00:34:25] agency focused in on gifting.
[00:34:26] And candidly, there's kind of a minimum there, but there was ~this, ~this delta [00:34:30] below that where people who they wanted to serve, but they just didn't have a product. So they had this idea of [00:34:35] an education product to help people who, to help them build their, their business to the [00:34:40] point where they could serve more, you know, get more referrals.
[00:34:43] So anyway, [00:34:45] John and I, we were talking and so that all led to us building this. [00:34:50] Course in this community, ~uh, ~the course is called Referral Partner Transformation. And the community built [00:34:55] around that is called Rich Relationship Society. and I'm so glad we went with that name because [00:35:00] Rich is an acronym.
[00:35:02] You've probably noticed that. And when people are hearing this for the first [00:35:05] time, you know, it's one thing to have relationships to get rich, but John's [00:35:10] definition wasn't to get rich. It was to be rich and to be richer ~and that, ~so we try to build this [00:35:15] community of. ~You know, ~big hearted servant leaders who want to be a part, ~uh, ~and build [00:35:20] relationships.
[00:35:21] And so, ~uh, ~it stands for, for the R stands for [00:35:25] reciprocal. ~Um, ~you know, that's, John was always, ~um, ~leading. He was always giving [00:35:30] more than he received. So same thing that I just talked about. So reciprocal, [00:35:35] influential, and candidly, that's how all of our businesses are built. Think about it, we're just [00:35:40] one relationship away.
[00:35:41] If you take a look at the most influential person you know, and if you were in a relationship with [00:35:45] them and they were endorsing you or referring you, what would that do to your business? So we're [00:35:50] always individuals seeking influence and seeking people of influence and trying to be an influential person.[00:35:55]
[00:35:55] So that's the I. And then there was connected. And our connections mean everything. ~So, um, you know, ~so that [00:36:00] was, ~uh, ~John and John was one of the most connected people, you know. You know, look at the people that were in the room. John was connected. [00:36:05] And so, ~um, ~building a business or building a community with connected people, and then [00:36:10] the h stood for Humble ~and you know, just, ~and I'm so glad that we stuck.
[00:36:14] With that [00:36:15] name of Rich, because ~John's, ~it perfectly describes John. He was reciprocal, he was influential, he [00:36:20] was connected, and most of all he was humble. And, ~uh, so anyway, so ~that's kind of what it stands for. That's the [00:36:25] partnership. So we've built a course, we built a community so people can consume the course if they [00:36:30] want.
[00:36:30] ~Uh, ~the course is really simple. We've helped them build their database. That business [00:36:35] owner that ~doesn't, ~isn't building that insurance policy. We wanna show 'em how to do that. We ~give a, ~give them a [00:36:40] framework to do that, which is ~collect their, ~collect their relationships, organize 'em in one place. We [00:36:45] really teach 'em how to prioritize, which is incredibly important.
[00:36:48] ~I. ~Not all relationships are created equal. They need to be [00:36:50] treated equal, but ~not, you know, that, not disparately, but they, but some, ~not all relationships are equal to your business. And then we teach people how to [00:36:55] energize those relationships in the course. And if people want more, ~I. ~They [00:37:00] can join ~the, uh, ~the community and get community.
[00:37:03] They get coaching, they get [00:37:05] big event. We have a monthly big event where we bring in special guest speakers and, ~um, ~and it's, ~uh, ~it's [00:37:10] Cory. It's, it's, it's my passion right now. So where can people find out more [00:37:15] about that? ~Um, ~you know, there's, ~uh, ~there's a great site. The team actually just texted me. We've got a link, ~um, ~[00:37:20] it's RPT, so referral, partner transformation, and then my [00:37:25] name, which.
[00:37:25] If they didn't come up with any more creative than that. So RPT Brian, [00:37:30] B-R-I-A-N. So, ~uh, ~just rrp t [00:37:35] www.rptbrian.com and all our information is, ~uh, ~listed there for the referral Partner transformation course. [00:37:40] Fantastic. And that is gonna be in the show notes. So if you're listening right now and [00:37:45] what Brian's been talking about and you wanna lead more into the course, learn about.
[00:37:48] how to energize, how to [00:37:50] collect your contact, your database. It feels like database Brian is a, is an out [00:37:55] outdated term a little bit to me. I'm sorry. The inventory of relational assets is what we call it. [00:38:00] So your IRA me. Think of like the old time, like the ACT database that we all had.
[00:38:04] Exactly. [00:38:05] Well, database sounds cold and it's candidly one of the re and I deal with a lot of financial [00:38:10] advisors, so I, you know, the new IRA is inventory. Of relational assets. [00:38:15] So there you go. All of that, Steve. There you go. That's a little more modern. That's awesome. So, ~uh, ~rpt [00:38:20] brian.com. That's where they can go learn more about the course and then se subsequently go ahead, there is a [00:38:25] discount code.
[00:38:25] If they plug in, Brian, there's an amazing discount. ~Um, ~just plug that in [00:38:30] and that'll get them the best discount available. Besides that, where, where else can people get in [00:38:35] touch with you if they wanna connect and learn more about you? Yeah. ~Uh, ~[00:38:40] www.briankmyparade.com. So beautiful. Yep. I have, ~uh, ~one more question for you.
[00:38:44] ~You've been talking about this, but I'll ask it. Um, ~[00:38:45] what's your motivation? What's my motivation? Um, well, I happen to be a person of faith, [00:38:50] Corey, and, um, by the way, I'm not judging, uh, there's no, I'm just, you're asking me. My [00:38:55] motivation is to do, ~um, ~you know, I want to glorify God. I wanna [00:39:00] make him known. And if I can do that through my thoughts, words, and actions, and it opens up conversations [00:39:05] for me to be able to talk to people about him, then, ~um, ~how awesome would that be?
[00:39:09] So [00:39:10] that's, um, that's, that's what motivates me. ~Yeah. I was seeing it in action. ~Brian, thank you so much for sharing your [00:39:15] wisdom, your experience, your knowledge, ~uh, and uh, ~and this great resource. It's been really wonderful. [00:39:20] Corey, you are a blessing, by the way. Thank you for honoring John in your book and, ~uh.~
[00:39:23] I appreciate you. ~Um, I enjoyed, ~I [00:39:25] enjoyed the read. It's really good. And I can see ~why you're, ~why you're having so much success. ~So, oh, thank and thanks Ron and John in the book. Yeah, ~thank you so much. You're welcome.
[00:39:29]
[00:40:00] ~I.~
