Vertical Go-To-Market | Jeff Spanbauer Interview
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[00:00:00] Jeff Spanbauer: Over the last 16 years, we've really built a great.
[00:00:03] Jeff Spanbauer: Business of being able to use data to help do omni channel marketing for primarily pharmaceutical and device clients across the U. S. Saying no to, actually say yes to something better. It was a big learning for me.
[00:00:16] Jeff Spanbauer: , once we did that, we've been able to scale a lot faster because we said no to patient and consumer marketing, and really focus on this HCP marketing area
[00:00:25] Corey Quinn: Welcome to the Vertical Go To Market Podcast, where you'll discover new [00:00:30] opportunities to grow your business from seven figures to eight from the world's most successful agency and B2B SaaS executives. I'm your host, Corey Quinn. Let's jump into the show. Today I'm joined by the co founder and chairman of Relevate Health, Jeff Spanbauer.
[00:00:47] Corey Quinn: Welcome Jeff. Hey, thanks Corey. I'm excited to be here. Oh man. I'm super excited as well. As we get kicked off here, could you share a little bit about your company, Relevate Health, what it does, who you serve and those types of things? [00:01:00]
[00:01:00] Jeff Spanbauer: Absolutely. Yeah. So Relevate Health, it was founded back in 2007. And, uh, over the last 16 years, we've really built a great.
[00:01:07] Jeff Spanbauer: Business of being able to use data to help do omni channel marketing for primarily pharmaceutical and device clients across the U. S. Beautiful.
[00:01:16] Corey Quinn: So first question I have based on that response is what, how do you define omni channel marketing? Cause it's, it's, it's a, it's sort of a term that's used differently in different contexts.
[00:01:29] Corey Quinn: How, how do you [00:01:30] think about it?
[00:01:31] Jeff Spanbauer: Yeah, I think about it as really surround sound. So making it kind of a seamless experience for, for us, we're marketing to doctors, primarily healthcare professionals and making it a seamless personalized experience for them as they're trying to get information about the brands we serve.
[00:01:46] Jeff Spanbauer: And so, you know, there's a lot of different definitions of it, but that's how I think of it is really the surround sound that's seamless. And Wherever you left off with one and you go through a different channel, you pick up where you left off. And it's, it's a very seamless, really [00:02:00] personalized experience for the healthcare professional.
[00:02:01] Corey Quinn: God, I love that. And my, uh, my last role as a CMO, just being able to ensure that. Campaigns and copy and creative is consistent across channels is quite a challenge. So I have a lot of respect for the work that you guys do. Yeah. A lot of data. Absolutely. Yeah. And so just to be clear, so you're serving sort of healthcare and pharma businesses then, and they're trying to market directly into doctors.
[00:02:25] Corey Quinn: Is that, is
[00:02:26] Jeff Spanbauer: that fair? Yeah. So our, our clients, these pharmaceutical brands, you know, they get a, [00:02:30] they, you know, get a drug approved. And they need to build awareness. They have a 17 year patent and, and on their drug. And that usually, usually costs about a billion dollars to get a drug out in the marketplace, just based on the clinical testing and everything that has to happen to make that happen.
[00:02:45] Jeff Spanbauer: So these guys have the pressure of, I got, you know, and by the time the drug gets approved through the FDA, it's about year 10. So they have about seven years to make their, you know, their billion dollar. Plus, ideally, some return on that back, so they want to [00:03:00] get in front of these doctors and make them aware of the disease state and that there's a new treatment to be able to serve them and their patients.
[00:03:07] Jeff Spanbauer: And that's kind of our job is to really, you know, help launch these drugs and, uh, get as much awareness as possible with the, with the right people so that they can get the treatment they need and get the quality of life they're looking
[00:03:17] Corey Quinn: for. That's awesome. And just a little bit of context on the company.
[00:03:21] Corey Quinn: What could you share about maybe the number of employees, revenue, whatever you're comfortable sharing, number of clients? Yeah,
[00:03:26] Jeff Spanbauer: I mean, we're, we're about 220 employees and [00:03:30] we have four offices, Cincinnati. New Jersey, Boston, and Dallas. We'll do around, you know, 70 ish million this year. And so it's, yeah, it's been, been really cool seeing it go from myself and my co founder to now all these new people, um, over the last, you know, 16 years and, uh, it's just, it's been very surreal to kind of watch the company and then moving from CEO to chairman where I got to handle the baton off and yeah, the day to day operations has been, uh, It's been a real joy to watch and see this thing continue to do great
[00:03:58] Corey Quinn: things.
[00:03:59] Corey Quinn: So [00:04:00] amazing. I can't wait for this conversation. So much to unpack there. So why don't you take us back to you started in 2007. What was happening in your life then that caused you and your co founder to say, Hey, we should, we should start an agency.
[00:04:14] Jeff Spanbauer: Yeah. Well, interestingly, myself and my co founder, we worked together at P& G and we, we never worked in the same areas, but we would actually, myself, him and another guy would get up.
[00:04:25] Jeff Spanbauer: And meet around 6am to work out together before the day got started. We all had young kids [00:04:30] and we knew that there was no chance of working out after work. So we want, we wanted to get it done before. So fast forward, he left P& G. I left and went to Pfizer and maybe four years into my Pfizer gig, you know, Pfizer had this culture that they really trusted their employees.
[00:04:45] Jeff Spanbauer: And if there was someone I would recommend to come join the company and they got hired, they would pay me two grand. So my, you know, soon, you know, one day co founder was at a different company. And the job that I was in for Ohio opened up in New Jersey. And I called Scott and [00:05:00] said, Hey, you should come work at Pfizer and I'll make two grand off of it.
[00:05:03] Jeff Spanbauer: So he ended up getting hired. We worked together for about three years at Pfizer. Uh, he still gives me a hard time about it all worked out. So, so yeah. So 2006. With there was a lot of change at Pfizer. They were going through a lot of restructures with Lipitor heading towards becoming generic, which was their biggest brand.
[00:05:22] Jeff Spanbauer: It was like a 12, 12 billion brand, and it was going to be generic within a couple of years. And so Pfizer was going through all these cost structure changes. [00:05:30] And, you know, interestingly, I was on this team with Scott and there were 24 marketers across the U S doing this thing called local marketing. And, you know, based on our experience at P& G and Pfizer, like this is, this is a really cool idea.
[00:05:43] Jeff Spanbauer: This is, and being in that role, we were able to deliver great results for the brands we were partnered with. And so, but as like any big company, uh, our, our VP who was in charge of our team, he left the company. We didn't have a VP, the company's going through a restructure and the, the [00:06:00] chief marketing officer said, Hey, I got to get rid of 25 people in marketing.
[00:06:03] Jeff Spanbauer: There's this team of 24. I'm going to go ahead and get rid of that team and they can apply for other jobs, you know, and they, you know, ask Scott and I apply for jobs in New York. But, you know, basically he, they gave us a six month headstart to say, Hey. Good luck in your next, uh, next adventure, you know, consider New York for, you know, a couple of minutes, but my wife, we had three kids at a time.
[00:06:22] Jeff Spanbauer: She was like, you can go to New York, but I'm not going to New York. So I knew that wasn't going to be a good solution. And, uh, Scott had actually been [00:06:30] commuting, doing an intern, kind of a, I think they called it succumbent where he was going into headquarters and he lived in Jersey. He's like, there's no way this is a long term solution.
[00:06:38] Jeff Spanbauer: So we, we kind of like said, Hey, this is a really cool concept that. That Pfizer, you know, has us doing, you know, Pfizer no longer wants to do it cause they're getting rid of our team. And so we should go off of this out in the marketplace, which was just a great way to get started because we already kind of knew exactly, you know, ways that we could provide value for brands.
[00:06:55] Jeff Spanbauer: And then we worked with the Pfizer and could work with other companies as well. So that, that [00:07:00] gave us the impetus and, you know, took us about a month to get hired by three major pharmaceutical companies. So we got hired, you know, by J& J, AstraZeneca and Santa Fe of Venice, like right away. They loved our background at P& G and Pfizer.
[00:07:13] Jeff Spanbauer: And the fact that we already kind of knew exactly how to make things happen in the, in, in this regional concept. So the biggest thing that Scott and I did to really change, you know, kind of make this a much stronger model is. We, we went and got a, um, we worked really hard to get a patent on how we did [00:07:30] pharmaceutical segmentation of markets.
[00:07:32] Jeff Spanbauer: And we use a lot of data to do that. And that gave us kind of this really strong analytical foundation to be able to go to a brand and say, Hey, here's, here's the local market drivers for your business and here, you know, you don't need to change everything, but here's a couple of things you can do to create relevance locally, that's really going to change the trajectory of your brand's performance in these, in these local geographies.
[00:07:52] Jeff Spanbauer: And so. That was our start. And, uh, we started really selling the analytics first because, you know, like any good [00:08:00] marketer, you got to have a good strategy before you go off and do the execution. And then, you know, as we started to, you know, help these brands come up with ideas from a, you know, strategy perspective, they then needed solutions to be able to implement those strategies.
[00:08:14] Jeff Spanbauer: And then we started to roll out. More tactical products that, uh, allowed us to be able to create local relevance for them through these products.
[00:08:22] Corey Quinn: So let me, let me understand this a little bit. So you would, you, uh, first off you, you follow the patent for your data driven segmentation [00:08:30] approach, right? I love that because that instantly gives you sort of.
[00:08:34] Corey Quinn: Good positioning and a brand story. You can go in and talk about, you know, our proprietary widget that helps you to do things that we, you know, as a result of this, you'll have an advantage, which is very
[00:08:44] Jeff Spanbauer: powerful. It also gave us the credibility of the U. S. Patent Office evaluated this and said it was something that they saw as a.
[00:08:51] Jeff Spanbauer: You know, as, as patentable and we never really expected to go, you know, ever, you know, from a legal [00:09:00] perspective, protect the patent against the pharma companies because they got more lawyers and marketers, but what we did see is it gave us a lot of credibility. Sure. You're you guys
[00:09:08] Corey Quinn: are marketers. So it was, it was marketing.
[00:09:11] Corey Quinn: Yeah, I love it. That's
[00:09:12] Jeff Spanbauer: beautiful. Yeah.
[00:09:13] Corey Quinn: And then, so you, you effectively, you're an in house agency to a certain extent that you came out based on the layoffs at Pfizer. And because you had that, the, already the awareness, a lot of the skill sets that you needed, it was, it was sort of the next, next best thing to just start your own thing, [00:09:30] which I love you got hired, what you said, two weeks by those three pharma.
[00:09:33] Corey Quinn: A month. A month.
[00:09:34] Jeff Spanbauer: Yeah. It took a month. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You negotiate the master service agreements. Yeah.
[00:09:37] Corey Quinn: You know, get the scope. But that, that was based on, I'm, I'm imagining existing relationships. You didn't have to cold call.
[00:09:44] Jeff Spanbauer: You know, it's funny because some of them are brand new relationships, but it was, it was through networks.
[00:09:50] Jeff Spanbauer: So I'll tell you this story. So our VP who left Pfizer, you know, he was out interviewing for pretty big jobs, you know, and so I called him and said, Hey, you know, [00:10:00] Scott and I are looking to go start a company that, you know, basically does this idea of regional marketing and Pfizer to more local marketing, but we want to do it more scalable and he's like, that's great.
[00:10:09] Jeff Spanbauer: Let me, you know, I was like, is there anybody we should talk to? So he introduced us to the, So three people, one was the, you know, and, and Scott went to this meeting because it was in New Jersey, but Scott, you know, calls to make an appointment with this guy and the guy's like, you know, his, his assistant answers and he's like, Hey Scott, which office do you want to see him at?
[00:10:27] Jeff Spanbauer: And Scott's like, Oh, he's got multiple [00:10:30] offices. Well, I'll pick this one because it's the closest one to my house. So he, he picked that one. Well, he gets there and, you know, goes in, this guy has a massive office with a, you know, table, you know, in the corner. So they set the table and, uh, Scott, he hands this guy his card and Scott reads and it says, Oh, CEO of the, of J& J Pharmaceuticals.
[00:10:48] Jeff Spanbauer: Cause this was before LinkedIn and stuff. So he really didn't, you know, have a degree to do a lot of it. Wow. Yeah. So he started with that guy and, you know, he, he presented our concept and the guy's like, Hey, this is really good. Can you hang on? Picks up the phone [00:11:00] calls a guy named Bob, who's in charge of, you know, marketing and Bob comes down and listens to it.
[00:11:04] Jeff Spanbauer: And they're like, this is great. This is exactly what we've been looking for. So that was, that was nice to start at the top and work our way down because. When, when, you know, we got introduced to the brands to actually get the deal done, they thought it was already approved by their boss's boss. And that made it much easier to get that.
[00:11:21] Jeff Spanbauer: So that was kind of a lucky, you know, network that, uh, our, our old VP got us, got us to. And then the other ones, I think I met at a conference, uh, [00:11:30] maybe six months before and left, let them know I was looking to start a company. So yeah, so, but yeah, they were all kind of new people to us, but through kind of one degree of separation.
[00:11:39] Corey Quinn: And because effectively, were you doing a lot of the similar things you were doing in house at Pfizer, or were you doing things that? You were outsourcing at Pfizer. Like what, what, why, why wouldn't J& J in this example have their own team internally doing this type of
[00:11:54] Jeff Spanbauer: work? Yeah, we, we had an agency at Pfizer that did some of the work.
[00:11:59] Jeff Spanbauer: It was, you [00:12:00] know, a lot of marketing services type stuff that, I mean, the, the way it works in the pharma space is most of the brands have more money than time. And so they ended up hiring a number of agencies to help them get the work done. And that was kind of the role we've played. And we just niched ourselves more into this idea of regional, you know, being able to help you win regionally through better relevance versus trying to do the one size fits all in the pharma space.
[00:12:22] Jeff Spanbauer: Relevate health. I
[00:12:23] Corey Quinn: get it now. It's clicking for me.
[00:12:26] Jeff Spanbauer: We started as HRM healthcare, regional marketing, but we, you know, we figured it [00:12:30] out how to do a better job of branding and move to relevate health. So you got it. Yeah. And so
[00:12:33] Corey Quinn: what's the difference between local and regional?
[00:12:37] Jeff Spanbauer: Yeah. So like kind of our experience at Pfizer is Pfizer had all the resources to have people at these, you know, there's 24 of us there and you were very focused on local one off initiatives.
[00:12:48] Jeff Spanbauer: So you had the ability to kind of create something for, you know, Cincinnati, Ohio versus something that could scale to 20 markets at a time and kind of what we figured out when we [00:13:00] started the company was. You know, most brands don't really want to hire us to do something in Cincinnati, Ohio. They want to hire us to do something in 20 markets that may be similar to Cincinnati, but have enough scale to really move the needle.
[00:13:12] Jeff Spanbauer: And so that was kind of our pivot was making, using data to find markets that had similarities. And then recommending those 10, 20, 50 markets to a brand to go focus on. And the other big insight in healthcare that you may or may not know is, you know, our, our, our kind of accepted, you know, [00:13:30] client belief was healthcare's local, if we, if we would go in and say healthcare's local, the way your drug performs.
[00:13:36] Jeff Spanbauer: And, and Cincinnati is very different than New York city. It's very different than Boston, Massachusetts, very different than, you know, Miami, Florida, and that's all based on local market factors. Like, you know, what insurance companies cover your product, what doctors and key opinion leaders in your market are talking about your product it's, you know, based on the level of, uh, you know, your, some, some, some markets have, you know, populations that have [00:14:00] higher propensity for that disease state.
[00:14:02] Jeff Spanbauer: And so we came up with our six P's of regional marketing and under each of those P's, we had different metrics we could use to help, you know, diagnose or, you know, help them understand kind of what the drivers were. And then we would able to be able to run that through this, you know, the math to figure out what markets had that.
[00:14:17] Jeff Spanbauer: And so the idea of regional is it was really local marketing that's scalable and the ability to really move the needle. And that, that was kind of our pivot of. Being able to, you know, help brands do this because they, they [00:14:30] all agreed. Healthcare is local is just too much work to try and do local initiatives, but they love the idea of doing more regional initiatives.
[00:14:36] Jeff Spanbauer: And so you'd come in
[00:14:38] Corey Quinn: with the analytics, the five P six P's that you said six P's and then you'd give them an understanding of what's possible, maybe what's currently broken, given that led to strategies and then led to the tactical execution.
[00:14:51] Jeff Spanbauer: So you got it.
[00:14:52] Corey Quinn: That's exactly right. So you had, it was you and your partner, Scott.
[00:14:55] Corey Quinn: In there, how did you, like you close three big clients, like, you [00:15:00] know, you know, must not fail clients pretty quickly. How did you manage that out of the gate?
[00:15:06] Jeff Spanbauer: First, we were like super excited. You're like, wow, this is, this is awesome. And then we realized, oh crap, we have a lot of work to do. So we started hiring and Scott and I debated for a little, you know, a couple, you know, five minutes.
[00:15:18] Jeff Spanbauer: Hey, should we start an office in New Jersey or start an office in Cincinnati? He lived in New Jersey. I lived in Cincinnati and. We quickly came to the conclusion like, Hey, Cincinnati's got a lot of marketing talent and the cost of living is much lower in [00:15:30] Cincinnati. And so. It'd probably be smart for us to build our headquarters in Cincinnati.
[00:15:35] Jeff Spanbauer: So that was kind of, you know, strategic decision number one. And we started hiring people here and, uh, yeah, so that was kind of how we ended up in Cincinnati. And, you know, it, it, it was, you know, for me, it was, you know, interesting cause I got. You know, I got, I joke with Scott, I got the short end of the stick here.
[00:15:50] Jeff Spanbauer: Cause I got to manage all these people, right? Like that's a lot of work. So we figured it out. And, uh, you know, both over the course of our time together, um, it was great just watching the [00:16:00] personal growth for how our roles changed as the company got bigger and how we kept evolving, uh, you know, our ability to, you know, through self awareness, our ability to be able to lead differently than when we first started.
[00:16:11] Corey Quinn: Absolutely. And I'd love to sort of learn a little bit more about that. Certainly be because, you know, a two person agency at the early days is, you know, running that maybe a small team there in Cincinnati, you need to be one type of leader, but then when you are. A company with 220 employees and eventually, you know, the [00:16:30] chairman and exiting the operational aspects of the business, that's a much different leader.
[00:16:34] Corey Quinn: I witnessed this firsthand at my last company where we went from 20 million to 150 million in revenue as an executive. We had to, you know, we had to learn a lot, we had to grow a lot, a lot of growing pains, but I'm curious about maybe what are, what were some of the major milestones in the business and maybe even personally along the way as you went from.
[00:16:55] Corey Quinn: Yeah, [00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Jeff Spanbauer: so from a business perspective, you know, we started, you know, in 2007, I think we had like 400 grand of revenue that year total, and it was, you know, ended up with probably like, you know, eight employees fast forward, four years later, and we're doing 15 million. I mean, probably have 80 employees. And it was interesting because we came from Pfizer, you know, nobody at Pfizer would hire us the first two years.
[00:17:22] Jeff Spanbauer: But once we, you know, kind of proved ourselves and, you know, we're still in business and actually, you know, in office. They started hiring us and, uh, [00:17:30] Pfizer became a huge client for us in 20, 2009, 2010, that grew, and they also made a big shift towards regional. They, they created five regional business units.
[00:17:39] Jeff Spanbauer: And so through their business units, basically the high risk is their agency of record, so that create a lot of growth, but. You know, growth is great, but when it's one client, I think of our 15, about 10 of it was coming from Pfizer. It's really good until they have another, you know, budget cut. And so 2012, we're back down to 6 million.
[00:17:59] Jeff Spanbauer: And so that [00:18:00] was a really big learning lesson for us. You know, me, especially. And it wasn't so, so big a deal of financially as it was culturally, you know, taken a company from, you know, zero to 15 and then back down to six create, you know, and, you know, like, I didn't know how to tell people where we got to cut, you know, cut costs and reduce headcount.
[00:18:20] Jeff Spanbauer: That created a lot of cultural challenges for us for the next three years that we really figured out like, Hey, culture is really what matters in these businesses. Cause it's a people business. [00:18:30] And so we really focused on building the culture back from 2012 towards, you know, a great culture, I would say today, that's, you know, focused around, you know.
[00:18:39] Jeff Spanbauer: Self awareness, but also around core values that can really help people understand what good looks like so that they can be successful in the organization. And we're attracting the right people. And that's that, that was a big part of our, of our work, but, you know, after the, the big drop, we, we grew the business back without any kind of concentration until 2020 when we were about 18 [00:19:00] million in revenue.
[00:19:00] Jeff Spanbauer: So we tripled it from, you know, 2012 to 2020, we got to 18. So it was from 2007 or 2012 to 2020, we, we tripled it, but we did it much more strategically where we're not taking on major clients that are going to, you know, basically if they make a major change, we have to make major changes as well. So, and then in 2020, as you know, COVID hit.
[00:19:21] Jeff Spanbauer: And COVID really emphasized this concept that healthcare is local. All of a sudden, everybody's going to the John Hopkins website, typing in their zip code to see how much COVID there is in that [00:19:30] market. And so that just created a huge opportunity for us to own this whole idea of healthcare being local.
[00:19:35] Jeff Spanbauer: And so we ended up partnering, you know, interviewed a number of companies, but we partnered with a PE firm called Mountain Gate Capital. And then from there, we've scaled it, you know, over the last three years from the 18 to about 77, it will be in the seventies this year, as far as revenues. So just tremendous growth.
[00:19:51] Jeff Spanbauer: And, you know, part of that was. You know, just being able to transform a company from this niche business that was doing regional to now there's really, [00:20:00] you know, mainstream business of omni channel marketing and we've been able to, you know, move into very clear line items for our brands. Our brands have, you know, a number of line items, but three big ones are, it's called non personal promotion, peer to peer marketing and rep enablement.
[00:20:16] Jeff Spanbauer: And so we've kind of repositioned the company as this omni channel know how partner that can really help you win in those three areas. And that's really helped us, uh, be able to find a lot more clients and get a lot bigger deals because now we're selling things that are already part of their, of their budget [00:20:30] versus trying to sell something that they thought was really cool and really interesting, but it wasn't a line item.
[00:20:35] Jeff Spanbauer: So they had to go, would have to go create the money to
[00:20:37] Corey Quinn: find regional market. They'd have to either cut the pie in a way that they didn't, they didn't want to, or go find new money, which is always hard. Could we, can we go back to 2012 just for a second? I'm, I'm super curious. You mentioned that it was, that was, it was at that time based on the.
[00:20:52] Corey Quinn: Uh, the pullback of Pfizer that you had to lay off a bunch of folks. At what point did you realize that you had sort of a culture problem? [00:21:00]
[00:21:00] Jeff Spanbauer: So I, I, you know, I got to lay off, you know, a majority of the people cause they're here in Cincinnati. And so I remember the way I did it at the time was I'd go out, get a person, say, Hey, can I meet with you for a minute, take them back into a conference room with my HR person, partner.
[00:21:15] Jeff Spanbauer: And we would, you know, say, Hey, really appreciate everything you've done for us. But unfortunately, based on the business, you know, here's what we're going to do. And every time I go out, I notice there's less and less people looking at me, you know, wanting to talk to me, smiling at me, you know, [00:21:30] and then by the time I was done, like everybody was like, Oh, you know, I hope Jeff doesn't call my name.
[00:21:34] Jeff Spanbauer: So. That was kind of like, you know, hint number one, but then, you know, over, over the next, you know, few months, as I meet with people, there was just this lack of trust and I, you know, I, you're always the last to know when you're at the top of organization, you're always the last to know about what people are really talking about, but over time, you know, we'd have some people leave, you know, it'd be, you know, just get feedback.
[00:21:56] Jeff Spanbauer: Like, you know, the company's not transparent enough. We really don't know [00:22:00] what's going on, you know? And so that was. I, you know, I'd say soon thereafter, it was pretty clear. Like we really created a break in trust with our people and that's not a great way, you know, it was clear to me, like, you know, trust is really important for a strong culture and lack of trust just creates a lot of, you know, noise in the organization that everybody's second guessing everything you're saying, people are ready to come talk to you.
[00:22:23] Jeff Spanbauer: And so that was. That was kind of, you know, I would say during it was clear to me when people wouldn't look at me and they're kind of hiding that we [00:22:30] got a, we got a trust problem here.
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[00:23:19] Corey Quinn: You could sign up and get the first secret right now by going to GetOutboundROI. com That's Get Outbound. OutboundROI. com, [00:23:30] now back to the show. So, so you mentioned there's, you know, business growth and personal growth. What, what did you, what did you, what did you have to face maybe as a leader to earn back that trust?
[00:23:43] Corey Quinn: What did you have to change?
[00:23:44] Jeff Spanbauer: Yeah. So it was me. Like I, you know, like there was a, I got introduced to this, um, you know, the system or whatever it's called Enneagram. And then I've done the Myers Briggs, you know, I've done DISC. But we had a lady who's here in Cincinnati, who's a great coach. And I'm, I'm part of a group called Entrepreneur's Organization.
[00:23:59] Jeff Spanbauer: [00:24:00] And we get together as a forum. And as part of the forum, we, we all worked on personal growth using this Enneagram and this consultant. And kind of what I learned is a lot of my natural tendencies, they're superpowers, but they're also super weaknesses. And so, you know, I'm a three on the Enneagram, which is an achiever.
[00:24:17] Jeff Spanbauer: And so part of. You know, my DNA is to, you know, kind of be a chameleon to some extent, like whoever, you know, I can kind of blend with people really easily and I'm really. Tuned into making sure, I'm trying to, you know, make you happy, [00:24:30] impress you, what, whatever those things may be. And that's not always good as a leader.
[00:24:33] Jeff Spanbauer: In fact, part of, you know, being a leader is being able to, you know, be transparent and not tell you what you want to hear, but tell you the truth so that you can, you know, effectively be an adult and understand kind of the situation we're in. So that's part of, um, I think part of what I had to learn was, you know, the way I'm, I'm, the way I'm wired as a leader.
[00:24:54] Jeff Spanbauer: Um, there's some really good parts to it. You know, but there's also some, you know, natural tendencies that are going to make [00:25:00] me maybe, you know, less effective. And so transparency was one thing I had to learn, especially as a leader to say, you know, let me, let me share with you kind of the situation we're in.
[00:25:10] Jeff Spanbauer: And, uh, you know, here's what we're trying to do and anything you can do to help us, you know, fix some of these areas would be very, very valuable. So yeah, so I I'd say Enneagram really put me on this journey to start to understand. Some of my natural tendencies as an achiever may create some relationship challenges because I'm, you know, doing tasks [00:25:30] versus getting to know somebody.
[00:25:31] Jeff Spanbauer: Or, you know, instead of being transparent, I'm, I'm trying to be, you know, kind of, you know, trying to tap into what you want to hear versus what you really need to hear. And so those were things I had to learn and it took time, but that was, that was a journey I've been on, I'm still on, of just being a better, better leader and a better communicator.
[00:25:51] Jeff Spanbauer: That's awesome.
[00:25:52] Corey Quinn: Enneagram is one of the few tests I've not done. I've heard a lot about it, but I've not done it. I've done pretty much every other one of the same. So I've wrote that [00:26:00] down. We'll put it in the show notes. If other people are interested in checking that out, I think it's, I'm always interested to learn more about myself and my, to your point, like my natural tendencies, we all have blind spots.
[00:26:10] Corey Quinn: Right.
[00:26:10] Jeff Spanbauer: So, yeah, and then we actually rolled it out to the whole company, you know, just found like the whole company, everybody in the company. I wouldn't say everybody, but I'd say a vast majority really enjoyed learning about themselves and building their self awareness and kind of the idea was, Hey, you can't, I can't use them a three on the enneagram as an excuse.
[00:26:28] Jeff Spanbauer: But you at least know [00:26:30] how I'm wired. So maybe you can help me see some of my blind spots when I'm doing things that are creating some of this lack of trust or some of this tension. I'd really appreciate you. And I give you permission to tell me that, Hey, Jeff, when you do, it makes me feel this way. Cause I'll never know unless you tell me, you know, and so that, that was the culture we started to create internally as everybody would, you know, we would do lunch and learns, we'd have a consultant come in and she would train us, she would tie, you know, spend time getting each person typed and educated.
[00:26:57] Jeff Spanbauer: And then we had this, you know, we had this language internally we could use [00:27:00] to, you know, better communicate, especially during times of stress or times when people were like myself, we're doing things that may not, may have not been getting the outcome I was trying to get, and then it just created a, you know, a higher level of trust.
[00:27:11] Jeff Spanbauer: And just to understand that we're all trying to get better, no matter what level you're at or, you know, where you are in the organization.
[00:27:17] Corey Quinn: You also mentioned, I believe at that time you got, you got clear on the fact that you needed to be more explicit about the company values and mission potentially, is that, was that part of the transformation as [00:27:30] well?
[00:27:30] Jeff Spanbauer: Yeah, that started, um, soon after 2012, uh, I read a book called The Advantage by Patrick Lencioni. I love, I love Patrick.
[00:27:37] Corey Quinn: Yeah, I have all of his books right over here.
[00:27:39] Jeff Spanbauer: Yeah. So that book to me was The Advantage was like a game changer for me. Cause you know, I grew up in Pfizer and P& G. And they, you know, they kind of have the big, long visions and missions you really can't remember.
[00:27:51] Jeff Spanbauer: And so, you know, myself and Scott and, uh, we had another partner at the time, Bill, we really focused in on, you know, we can't make this, you know, we [00:28:00] really need to have a vision and a mission, a vision first and then a mission second, and then values that people remember. And so, you know, over the years we've gotten it more and more crisp.
[00:28:09] Jeff Spanbauer: And now it's really good. Our, you know, our vision is, you know, every communication is relevant. So that's pretty, you know, pretty clear. And it's pretty aspirational because, you know, I'd say most communications in today's world aren't very relevant. And then our purpose is to create life changing healthcare engagement, which is just a much higher standard of marketing.
[00:28:27] Jeff Spanbauer: You know, if you're trying to really create life changing [00:28:30] healthcare engagement, it's gotta be good. It's gotta, you know, it's gotta be at the right time. And then we have a core, our core values are four and it's, we call it our PACT. So kind of our internal promise to each other, it stands for pioneering, accountable, caring, and transparent.
[00:28:42] Jeff Spanbauer: And then, you know, I could talk to you about all day about what each of those mean, but, you know, we've got it down to very succinct and very clear and intentional words associated with our vision, purpose, and values. And again, that didn't happen overnight. That took years to get there, but I think where we've ended up is really good.
[00:28:58] Jeff Spanbauer: And it gives a lot of [00:29:00] clarity in the organization, which is what Patrick Lynch Joni talks about. Well, that's, that's where the advantage really happens is when you create clarity.
[00:29:06] Corey Quinn: And you mentioned this was sort of a by product of the learning and the introspection as a result of what happened in 2012.
[00:29:12] Corey Quinn: Looking back, is this something that you would, or maybe if you were advising a, a, an agency owner who's just getting going, that that would be something that they should pay attention to as far as specific, being specific about their vision, mission, values,
[00:29:25] and
[00:29:25] Jeff Spanbauer: purpose? Yeah, definitely. If I, you know, if I ever started another [00:29:30] company, like to me, the vision, purpose and values.
[00:29:34] Jeff Spanbauer: All play into the name of the company, right? Like, so you need to know all that before you can even come up with the name of a company. And so to me that that's, and you know, and I don't think it has to be rocket science, but at the same time, like, you know, having a vision of where you want to be in five years, like that's one of the most powerful tools.
[00:29:50] Jeff Spanbauer: That anybody has, because it's creating kind of, you're casting something that people can now work towards without having a vision. You know, it's just really hard for people to know what I'm [00:30:00] communicating. And so that, that was a big learning is once we had a vision, it made it easier for people to get excited about it and understand kind of what success looks like.
[00:30:08] Jeff Spanbauer: And then the purpose, you know, kind of gives us a reason to come to work every day. You know, I joke when I was at P& G, my. My job was to make women feel insecure about their hair because I was a hair care marketer and that, that didn't get me that excited to tell my grandkids one day, but you know, but for some people, I'm sure it does, but for me, like really, you know, getting people better health and, and the latest information that that gets me excited, that makes me want to [00:30:30] come to work and, uh, do a great job so that we're helping people live longer, healthier lives.
[00:30:34] Jeff Spanbauer: And so that's kind of. Some of this stuff comes from the founder, whoever, you know, starting the company needs to have some passion in those areas. And then the values, if you can do that before you start. Yeah. You can actually hire people that fit it versus we did it, you know, midway through and we had to kind of come up with.
[00:30:49] Jeff Spanbauer: Come up with values that didn't just fit what, with what we wanted, but also fit with what we, who we had, because you can't, you can't make that, you can't change a culture just by throwing words on the wall. You have to really describe [00:31:00] your culture based on who you have. That's my experience.
[00:31:03] Corey Quinn: Yeah, exactly.
[00:31:03] Corey Quinn: You have to, or else they won't buy it if it doesn't represent reality, right? If you're, if it's something that doesn't fit, it's something that's on the wall that no one will actually really embrace. So at what point did you, I imagine. Well, you're, you're, you're no longer operationally heavily involved.
[00:31:19] Corey Quinn: It sounds like, but that, and that's correct. Right? Yeah, that's
[00:31:22] Jeff Spanbauer: correct. Yeah. I'm smiling so much. Yeah, that's right. Life's
[00:31:26] Corey Quinn: good. Yeah. Sleeping in. That's beautiful. Life's good. At what point [00:31:30] did you hire your first
[00:31:31] Jeff Spanbauer: salesperson? We started, started hiring salespeople, probably. In 2010, so, you know, maybe three years in and, you know, and now we have, you know, 12 salespeople.
[00:31:46] Jeff Spanbauer: So, you know, it's, it, but yeah, that, that was kind of the, it was pretty early in the process. And
[00:31:50] Corey Quinn: what was happening in the business that, that, that told you and Scott that, you know, Hey, we need to invest in the hiring salespeople.
[00:31:58] Jeff Spanbauer: It became really clear to us as we [00:32:00] ran this business that revenue solves all problems.
[00:32:02] Jeff Spanbauer: That's kind of our, our, our mantra, you know, and like it, there's a high correlation between the top line, the bottom line in a, in a marketing services business. And so if we wanted to grow and wanted to, uh, you know, have a, have a strong business, having salespeople on, on board was really, really important.
[00:32:20] Jeff Spanbauer: And it was interesting because we debated a long time. You know, a lot of people in the business do kind of the seller doer model where they'll. Have their account person be also be the salesperson [00:32:30] and kind of what we experienced was most account people are wired to please their clients and they're not comfortable asking for new business until their clients feel like they've done a great job and that could take three months, six months, 12 months.
[00:32:48] Jeff Spanbauer: And unfortunately by month 12, if you don't have another purchase order in place in our business. You know, we get annual contracts, you're kind of SOL for the next year. And so we would have a great year, you know, with this client [00:33:00] and then no PO the next year, and then a great PO the next year. And it was like, Hey, this is not going to work for growth when you have, you know, POs from clients every other year.
[00:33:09] Jeff Spanbauer: And so as we started to really learn about a salesperson skills. A salesperson is, you know, happy to ask for business anytime. They don't really need to prove themselves. They're comfortable with being told no. And so that was just a very different skill set than our account people. And our account people are awesome.
[00:33:27] Jeff Spanbauer: And some of them do a good job of upselling, but [00:33:30] to really grow a business, I think in our space, we needed someone who would just constantly be focused on. Sourcing new business for us and, uh, helping us find deals. And it's just a very different skill set than our account
[00:33:41] Corey Quinn: people. Given your focus in pharma specifically in healthcare, generally, was it a requirement at that time to hire someone for in a sales role who had a background in sort of pharma, or was it just a generic kind of salesperson, maybe had some sales skills or something in between?
[00:33:59] Jeff Spanbauer: So we, we tried [00:34:00] it all. So we hired, uh, you know, people who were not in pharma, who were, you know, great salespeople. Ex manufacturer salespeople. So somebody who worked for, you know, say Johnson Johnson as a sale, salesperson, selling the doctors. We brought, I mean, we've hired them. And ultimately we found that people who have agency sales experience in pharma are our best bets.
[00:34:22] Jeff Spanbauer: Yeah. Yeah. It's plug and play. Now it works. Yeah. And, and, you know, you can, people can learn, but at the end of the day. Everything is a lot more complex when you [00:34:30] dig into it, and the pharma space is very complex, and so, you know, I had one client, you know, who I knew from Pfizer, who also hired us later, who said, You know, if I have to teach one more agency, what a TRX or an NRX is, which is total prescriptions or new prescriptions, like I'm going to, I'm going to, you know, jump off the ledge.
[00:34:47] Jeff Spanbauer: And so there is a lot of value in having people who've done it before that come into the team. And so that our, our best hires thus far, you know. 16 years into it are people who are already working, who had already worked in the [00:35:00] services space in the pharma world. That
[00:35:02] Corey Quinn: makes perfect sense. It's also probably why you could, I don't know your pricing, but you could probably charge a premium because you already speak the language.
[00:35:09] Jeff Spanbauer: And again, our clients have more, more, uh, Money than time. Sure. Much happier to get people who've done it before. Here's the money, take care of it. Yeah, exactly. When it comes to
[00:35:22] Corey Quinn: sort of positioning and marketing, your differentiation in the market, I imagine you're not the only player in town who's able [00:35:30] to, has these type of skills.
[00:35:31] Corey Quinn: How do you, how do you differentiate? Yeah. Your, your agency versus the
[00:35:36] Jeff Spanbauer: competitors. Yeah. So historically it's, it's, it's all been around data driven marketing. And so that, like, that's, you know, for, you know, there's more and more companies that are, you know, playing in the data space, but it's still kind of a minority versus a majority.
[00:35:50] Jeff Spanbauer: So, and now, and now we have what we call, you know, solutions. So instead of coming in and saying, Hey, what are your problems? Here's a custom idea. We have [00:36:00] 12 kind of tech enabled solutions that we've designed over the last, you know, 16 years that we can plug in and turn on to do omni channel work for you tomorrow.
[00:36:08] Jeff Spanbauer: So I would, you know, I would say our big, our biggest ones are the data driven and then the, the, the solutions part of our business. That makes us very differentiated and allows us to get deals at these big global pharmaceutical companies that typically won't work with anybody who's not part of a network, but we're able to work with them because we have, you know, that differentiation.
[00:36:26] Jeff Spanbauer: Sure. And that
[00:36:27] Corey Quinn: I would, would you, would you consider those to be like [00:36:30] productized services where it's like a specific predefined. Kind of scope in, is this something that they could come to your website and just buy off the site directly? Or do they have to go through a sales
[00:36:39] Jeff Spanbauer: channel? They'd have to go through a sales channel at this point.
[00:36:42] Jeff Spanbauer: Yeah. It's not quite plug and play or SaaS. Yeah. You know, there's, there's a lot of, just because of all the regulation in our space, there's a lot of, you know, kind of understand their needs to a level that we can make sure we can deliver against.
[00:36:53] Corey Quinn: Yeah, that makes sense. How did you go from pure custom solutions to now having these different productized [00:37:00] offerings?
[00:37:00] Corey Quinn: Like what was that process like generally? You
[00:37:02] Jeff Spanbauer: know, it was, it was interesting as we started to work with, you know, these different manufacturers, you know, every manufacturer was like, Hey, our, our, they call it review committee. That's where you get stuff approved by legal, medical, and regulatory. Our review committee is the most conservative in the industry.
[00:37:18] Jeff Spanbauer: And so we'd hear that over and over. Every company we went to, we'd hear that from, we're like, Hey, you know, like you all can't be the most conservative in the industry. But, you know, we were starting to see very similar kind of areas that they would [00:37:30] hire us for. So one was called, you know, it was basically peer to peer marketing where we would get a doctor in Chicago that we would interview for best practices and diagnosing and treating, say, diabetes.
[00:37:41] Jeff Spanbauer: And then, you know, and we would do that and say 10 markets for brand A and then brand B, they, you know, we, they would hire us to do the same thing for, you know, cholesterol and then brand C would hire us to do something for infections. And so it was like, oh, these are, these are all kind of similar, you know, needs of using [00:38:00] local doctors to be able to better communicate to the, the general population, the general population or the general, you know, set of doctors.
[00:38:07] Jeff Spanbauer: You know, how do we standardize this and make it, you know, more consistent so we can put tech behind it and automate more of it. So that was kind of the process. And we've used a couple outside partners to help us kind of, you know, bring in productization skills. There's a couple of companies that at least one company we've worked with that does that.
[00:38:23] Jeff Spanbauer: And that's like a lot of, it's interesting cause our sales guys love selling that way. But then our delivery people didn't like [00:38:30] delivering that way. Cause they, they, they liked the creative, they liked the ability to kind of do things a little bit differently. Yeah. So it was kind of, it was a, you know, kind of back to culture as a little bit of a culture change to get our operations teams to standardize things and do things consistently across clients.
[00:38:46] Jeff Spanbauer: So, but I think as you start to get multiple clients, you can start to see themes. Of things that they all need. And then based on that, you can start to identify and then make the choices around how do you standardize some of this stuff and what part needs to be custom or what part needs to be, [00:39:00] you know, standard.
[00:39:00] Jeff Spanbauer: And so, and then with technology, it becomes, you know, it's, it's easier in a way because clients will. Kind of subscribe to your technology or to your, your product that way. It just takes more kind of programming the backend to build it, to actually implement it, but that's, yeah, that, that, that was kind of the, you know, I would say pretty early on, we were selling, we had a number of products that we sold and that was, that meant that made it easier to kind of scale and, and, and kind of productize some of those things.
[00:39:26] Jeff Spanbauer: And
[00:39:26] Corey Quinn: I imagine, obviously I don't know your deal structure, but I imagine the [00:39:30] retention is probably pretty good on those past 12 months, once they're in type of thing.
[00:39:34] Jeff Spanbauer: Yeah, no, we get high rates. The biggest thing we saw was, you know, we get year one and then our account people wouldn't, you know, ask until budget season was already over for year two.
[00:39:44] Jeff Spanbauer: So we'd end up with year three. So we'd kind of, that was kind of, maybe if you remember back in our sales conversation, we were getting every other year deals, clients loved working with us. They liked the ROI they got on our stuff. You know, we did, we didn't do a great job of always being in their budget year after year.
[00:39:58] Jeff Spanbauer: And so that was when we started to [00:40:00] add the sales team. So that makes sense. But yeah, no, I think we're working with 195 brands now across the, the pharma and the device space, which I didn't, you know, if you'd asked me five years ago, I wouldn't even realize there was that many brands. So it's pretty cool, uh, you know, getting a chance to work with all these clients and continue to learn and identify themes that we can productize.
[00:40:20] Jeff Spanbauer: So I
[00:40:20] Corey Quinn: just have a couple of more questions for you. As, as, uh, as you look back now, you've, you've, uh, stepped into more of a chairman role. You're no longer operational. You have this [00:40:30] private equity partner. These are all things that a lot of agency owners. We'd love to, we'd love to, at some point get to it, I think is, is really great.
[00:40:38] Corey Quinn: So, you know, what are, what are some of, as it relates to like, what are some of the big sort of takeaways or advice maybe that you would have for an agency owner who's considering taking a vertical market approach and wants these kinds of outcomes?
[00:40:53] Jeff Spanbauer: Yeah, like, you know, one is, um, you know, having a, you know, strategies about making a choice.
[00:40:58] Jeff Spanbauer: And I think the biggest choice [00:41:00] we made was probably like 2018 when we really said, let's focus on HCP marketing and say no to other stuff. That's hard to do as entrepreneur and an agency owner that you got all this overhead, but, you know, saying no to, to the, actually say yes to something better. It was a big learning for me.
[00:41:17] Jeff Spanbauer: And, you know, once we did that, we've been able to scale a lot faster because we said no to patient and consumer marketing, you know, and really focus on this HCP marketing area. And so that's. You know, a lot of us to be able to now [00:41:30] find companies to acquire. We were able to track P partner, you know, do all these things.
[00:41:34] Jeff Spanbauer: So that's part one. The second thing is like work on yourself. Like what got you here is not going to get you there. And so, you know, I was a great, you know, client service manager. I was a great salesperson, you know, but as I, as we started hiring people, you know, my role had to change. And that means. Like we talked about before, how you lead changes and, you know, kind of being this constant learner and really learning about myself, learning about other ways to approach things.[00:42:00]
[00:42:00] Jeff Spanbauer: You know, talking to other CEOs is really, you know, helpful. I, I, I've been in a couple of different business groups, you know, during my career that have been really, really helpful, like EO, another group called C12, where you're just kind of, you know, able to talk about issues and whether it's in pharma marketing or, you know, manufacturing, you got the same issues cause you have people, right.
[00:42:21] Jeff Spanbauer: And you have business stuff. And so being able to learn from other people and apply that. But also having enough self awareness to kind of know where you're strong and where you're not strong is really [00:42:30] important. And then really, you know, over time, like how do you hire the right people to be able to empower them to run it, run, run more and more of the business?
[00:42:38] Jeff Spanbauer: Because. And like, what I have found is, you know, as I kind of, as we got bigger, the only, the only issues I got were the hard ones. The people who we hired were able to handle a lot of the stuff that, you know, were kind of were easy for me at the time. And, you know, as they're not, not, they were hard for me at the time, but as I got more experience became easier.
[00:42:58] Jeff Spanbauer: And then as you hire people that are really [00:43:00] better than, as I hire people that were better than me in their specific areas, like they'd handle stuff a lot better than I can handle it. And I can focus on the bigger things from a strategic perspective, but, you know, trying to get involved in, you know, one of the things I learned is.
[00:43:16] Jeff Spanbauer: My, my way is not the only way. In fact, I'd rather you choose your way, as long as it's in a, you know, set of good enough that is going to allow us to allow you to own it, because if you own something from a decision [00:43:30] perspective, you're going to, you're going to make it happen a lot more successfully than if I tell you what you have to do.
[00:43:34] Jeff Spanbauer: And quite frankly, if I'm. Telling you what you have to do. I probably am not creating the right culture. I don't have the right people. And so that was a big learning for me was like, you know, there's a hundred ways to do things. There's probably 20 that are good enough. As long as you own one of those 20 and you think it's the right way and you go implement it.
[00:43:53] Jeff Spanbauer: Like, that's a win for me, that's a win for you, that's a win for the business. And so that, that was, uh, that was a big learning because, you know, [00:44:00] I, I quickly learned as I hired leaders, I couldn't, I could, we could kind of align on what to do, but I couldn't tell them how to do it. Or if I did, they would not be very motivated by it.
[00:44:08] Corey Quinn: And I think all of that requires a lot of introspection and focus on personal growth. You mentioned EO and these groups. How early should a founder Consider getting involved with these type of groups. Is it, is it ever too early
[00:44:20] Jeff Spanbauer: or is there, is there a milestone? No, I think early is good. Cause it's, it's lonely being a leader of a company in some ways.
[00:44:27] Jeff Spanbauer: I was blessed to have a partner that I could, we could [00:44:30] kind of commiserate together on challenges, but then, you know, I'm sure there was things that, you know, he was frustrated by me or vice versa, that it's nice to have a, another group of people that you can sit down and kind of share experience with.
[00:44:40] Jeff Spanbauer: Yeah. The nice thing about EO is. It's local, you get put in a forum and you can't give each other advice. You can only share experience. And so I can say, Hey, here's my problem. And then people can't say, Hey, Jeff, here's what you should do. Because the last thing any of us want to hear is what I should, somebody tell me who doesn't really know the situation that well, tell me what to do.
[00:44:59] Jeff Spanbauer: But [00:45:00] that you, you, you share kind of, Hey, I had a situation that was similar. Here's my situation. Here's what I did. Here's the outcome, and that's a much easier way to hear things. It's much more effective too, because then I can take that and process it to my specific situation. And I've learned to do that with my kids.
[00:45:15] Jeff Spanbauer: My kids don't want me to tell them what they should do, but they're very, they're very entertained to hear the problems and issues I've and the screw ups I've had in my life that they can then apply to theirs. So that's, that's been a good, a good tool that I learned from EO. And I would say, yeah, the [00:45:30] earlier, the better because.
[00:45:31] Jeff Spanbauer: It's, it's hard to, it's hard to start and, you know, grow these businesses unless you have people around you that you can lean on and, uh, and confer with and learn
[00:45:39] Corey Quinn: from. That's great. I think that's a great advice. Last question for you, Jeff, is what's your motivation?
[00:45:47] Jeff Spanbauer: You know, like I'm, I'm a guy of faith.
[00:45:49] Jeff Spanbauer: So like my kind of thing is like, how do I do a great job to glorify God in what I'm doing? Like, that's really where my standard is. And so It's like, how do I do a great job with the [00:46:00] talents I've been given and, you know, how do I do it in a way that I can, you know, one day, you know, hope, you know, see him hopefully and, uh, be told, you know, I did a good job.
[00:46:09] Jeff Spanbauer: So that, that's ultimately kind of the standard I try to work against versus, you know, having so much money in the bank or having my name on, on a building, you know, those, those things ultimately don't really matter. It's really. You know, kind of trying to leave a great legacy behind, um, with my family and, and doing the right thing, um, day to day.
[00:46:29] Corey Quinn: Well, you've been [00:46:30] extremely generous here with myself and the audience, and I really appreciate you taking the time to walk us through the history of probably a brief, a brief look at the history, but still a lot of, uh, a lot of really great, uh, insights and takeaways. Today. So thank you for coming on, Jeff.
[00:46:46] Jeff Spanbauer: Appreciate it. Corey, it's my pleasure. Appreciate the great questions and uh, yeah, thanks for keeping entertaining. That was a lot of fun for me. So so much. Okay. We'll talk
[00:46:54] Corey Quinn: soon. All right, folks, that's it for today. I'm Corey Quinn, and I hope you join me [00:47:00] again next time for the Vertical Go To Market Podcast.
[00:47:03] Corey Quinn: If you receive value from the show, I would love a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks. And we'll see you soon.
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