0:00:07 - Corey
Today I'm joined by Xaña Winans One more time, one more time. Here we go, gosh, okay, got it Today. I'm joined by Xaña Winans. Welcome, Xaña.
0:00:28 - Xaña
Hi Thanks for having me, Corey.
0:00:29 - Corey
I'm super excited for our conversation. I love the vertical that you're focused in on, which is the dental vertical. But before we get to that, could you just share a little bit about yourself and the work you do?
0:00:41 - Xaña
Sure, so I own Golden Proportions Marketing Agency. Started about 23 years ago. We are an agency that is exclusive to the world of working with private practice dentists, primarily those that are fee for service, and I am. It's kind of funny when I go to a cocktail party and people ask what I do and you say dental marketing and there's just like this dead silence, like really there's a niche for dental marketing. You have no idea how competitive it is.
0:01:12 - Corey
Yes, and big, it's a big market it is. I didn't personally, but someone on my team in my last agency went to the New York dental show. Apparently, I'm sure you're familiar and she would share with me that it's like football fields of booths and massive multimillion dollar booth experiences. So I got a sense for, yeah, it's a, it's a pretty big market.
0:01:36 - Xaña
It is it's. It's shockingly larger than just about any other niche within medicine, sort of just general practice. Mds, like dentists, are it?
0:01:47 - Corey
So just curious if you, if you have a sense of how big is the private practice dental market, like how many are there out there in the US?
0:01:55 - Xaña
So there's somewhere in the neighborhood of like 180 to 200,000 licensed dentists in the US, but that does not mean they are all private practice. It used to be 100%, but then the world of DSOs came about, which are dental service organizations for those who are listening but don't know that and that's basically corporate dentistry. The Aspen dentals of the world are the ones that you know. Make it look like you still own a private practice, but they're running everything behind the scenes and it is estimated within the next seven years that they're going to own 80% of the practices in the country. So, as big as my industry is, it's actually shrinking.
0:02:38 - Corey
So that's interesting. So you're working. You mentioned with the private practice dentists who are not part of the DSOs is my assumption.
0:02:46 - Xaña
Yes, we have a few what we call emerging or baby DSOs that are like in that you know up to seven or 10 locations because they want to grow to sell but they're not. There's no way they can manage marketing on their own. But otherwise I like the one off. You have much better relationships with them.
0:03:04 - Corey
And you know that's super interesting to hear. I want to dig into that Just for context. Could you share? What could you share about the for the size of your agency, golden proportion marketing, as far as employees, clients, revenue, whatever you're comfortable sharing?
0:03:19 - Xaña
Sure, there's currently 23 of us employed. I've been as high as 2627, but actually have made ourselves leaner and more efficient, so I didn't need as many people, which helped with profitability. I work with somewhere in the neighborhood of like 350 dentists at any given time. Some of them are, you know, just those that have been riding along for years. That might just have website hosting and SEO, and then there's new ones beyond board that are really, really comprehensive, and then, from a financial standpoint, we're around three and a half million and growing steadily Beautiful.
0:04:00 - Corey
And what is your role there as CEO and founder what your day to day look like.
0:04:05 - Xaña
For a long time I had my hands way too deep in it. I've handled strategy for clients and like Hands on client management and I got out for a little while and then I had to get back in and now I am basically back out against. My job is Visionary, coaching the team, creating new business opportunities, just like bringing the new ideas on board.
0:04:32 - Corey
Beautiful. So what is the story behind the name? Because I'm curious. Golden proportions marketing that's a super interesting Name, and how did the? How did you start the agency? What was happening in your life that led you to start an agency?
0:04:48 - Xaña
Well, those kind of go hand in hand. So I was very fortunate to meet my husband when he was in dental school at the university Pittsburgh. He was a D 1. Which basically means just finishing your first year of dental school. Uh, lived that journey with him. We moved out to a small town in central Pennsylvania. Um, he opened up a private practice and, even though I was working for another agency at the time, obviously I wanted to support my spouse. I did his marketing and, um, long story short, he's actually an extremely talented cosmetic dentist. He did training and taught other doctors out in Nevada and, uh, those doctors who saw what he was doing wanted me to start doing it for them. So, basically, one night an agency was born. And because he was so into cosmetics, in the world of cosmetic dentistry at the time they talked about the golden proportions, which is that perfect ratio of getting a very aesthetically pleasing smile.
0:05:50 - Corey
Now, there are days.
0:05:51 - Xaña
I would take that back at a heartbeat because it is a lot to spell out in an email address, but it is. It is noteworthy.
0:06:01 - Corey
So if I was to meet a cosmetic um, a dentist, who has specialized in cosmetics, and I said the term golden proportions, would they know what that means? Is that a saying Guaranteed? Yeah, Okay, and that's. I think that's, in a way, very brilliant, because you're communicating already that you're an insider to their world, because I, I don't know, I'm not an insider at all to that world and I do not know, I did not know that that reference. So I think that's really smart.
0:06:30 - Xaña
Well, I mean I will freely that it was what I knew at the time because cosmetics were so big. But we work with dentists of all possible specialties, so you know that value of that name might have been a little bit lost on, say, if you're a dentist who focuses on implants or pediatrics, but regardless, the brand's established.
0:06:52 - Corey
Yeah, so it's, it's, it's a yeah Okay, you're known for other things as well now. So, yeah, and so you, you, so it sounds like you got some some. You're doing some marketing for your husband as a result of that work. You got some exposure from the network, his network, and then that kind of led to an agency and what was sort of the growth trajectory? How did you get more dentist Is it? Was it mostly word of mouth in the early days Like how did that, how did that grow?
0:07:23 - Xaña
Um, I think, like most agency owners, I would truly call myself like an accidental agency owner. It was not something I planned on, so I didn't have a business plan about how to grow the business. The organization that he taught out at Nevada, the Las Vegas Institute for advanced dental studies. They asked me to come on faculty. I would fly out there every three weeks, lecture to what they call their core one group, which was kind of the entry level of doctors getting into their curriculum, and because of that we were actually asked to help them put together what was considered the first national branding campaign for Dennis. So we got over 1000 Dennis to contribute 1000 bucks a month for a year and we bought national media and so, like it was just this incredible opportunity to reach a lot of doctors all at once and help them carry that national branding through on a local level for them. So just an incredible kickstart. We were darn lucky.
0:08:26 - Corey
Wow. So you had a big project, lots of funding and a very clear mission, and that, I imagine, led to a lot of business, because you were able to get exposure in front of that target market as you were growing. Did you, oh, did you ever diversify into other verticals, or was it always dentist, dentist, dentist all the way through?
0:08:47 - Xaña
So I remember going to a couple of trade shows, one in particular, the American Academy of cosmetic dentistry, because that was sort of our niche in the beginning, and there were a couple of other agencies there. I was very new to this world and I remember walking past a booth where they had kind of like four quadrants and it had dermatology and plastic surgery and, I think, optometry and then dentistry and I went oh, I should probably be exploring all these other niches. What an untapped opportunity. Yeah, no, it's just a giant waste of money and time and effort. So like two years into it, lesson learned, I said no, do the thing we know best and just went all in on dental and specifically private practice. We've we've like played with some of the corporations that support the world of dental. Again, just, it's an adjacent niche but it's not close enough to what we do. So we learned the successes in line or lies in doing one thing really really well.
0:09:51 - Corey
Can I ask what are some of the things that you did during those two years to try and diversify a little bit? That didn't end up working out.
0:09:58 - Xaña
Sure, I did the same things I did in marketing for Dennis. I went to trade shows and I tried to find publications that I could drop articles in and I tried to make affiliations with some of the educational groups that they kind of have these connections with other doctors and referral bases, and it just it was almost like there were other people that were already really entrenched in that particular market or had their in, and I didn't have enough resources or time or energy to fight that fight to the level it needed to be to get really, really good at it. So, and that's not to say that there isn't an opening in those niches, it's just you can't portion yourself out a little bit at a time and expect to see success.
0:10:45 - Corey
I think that's really powerful. And so you went through that process, and was it? What point did you realize that this wasn't working? You were going through the motions of all the things you just shared, like at one point, like what was the evidence that it was time to kind of regroup and just focus in on private practice dentist.
0:11:06 - Xaña
But so there wasn't like a big moment. I'm a numbers person, I track the living heck out of everything and I would look at how much money we were spending and how many leads we're getting and what we were actually converting and the revenue and just the ROI wasn't there. Yeah, so you know we got a few but it wasn't worth it. So it was just it was a matter of like doing an end of the year analysis to plus years in saying never mind, it was a working yeah, there's only so many hours in the day, I guess, right.
0:11:39 - Corey
Now, at what point did you? Well, let me, let me back up. I'll ask it differently Um, do you do? Was the work you were doing then and now all project based, or are you doing a mix of project and recurring revenue, and how did that change over time?
0:11:55 - Xaña
Great question. So in the very beginning I kind of did what I learned working into other agencies. It was very project based. It was I'm going to design a logo for you and I would charge the client the full fee for the logo design upfront. And then we designed the logo and that was a good chunk of change for them. So then it would be 2 months later Okay, Now let's do a new patient packet or let's do a print ad.
And it was this like Torturous one off kind of a deal, and it was somewhere around 2007 or so that I started to realize we got to find something that's repeatable. So we actually started and it might have actually been a little bit before that To get larger commitment. We mapped out the whole plan, everything that they needed, Took all of those fees, bundled them, put them in a zero interest 12 month payment plan so that it fit their budget, but I got them to commit to a much larger package of work. And then, probably about a year or two after that is when we started adding recurring revenue. Okay, like I remember, you know 13 clients doing SEO for 500 bucks a month and now I have hundreds for a lot more than that. Yeah, and that's, that's where the money lies. That's the success.
0:13:16 - Corey
And how did you? What was that process of introducing these recurring products? Any lessons learned as you were rolling these new types of products out to your existing client base?
0:13:28 - Xaña
Yeah, lessons learned on my clients backs. Unfortunately, like I think all lessons are, you know we would. Somebody would ask if we could do something and we'd say yeah, and we go give it a shot and kind of learn as we went. The biggest lesson which we apply now every time we add a new recurring revenue product, is you got to go through a period of a couple clients that are willing to be your guinea pigs, that get your service for free for this new thing that you test, you learn, you write a system for you have to figure out what it's going to cost and then you roll it out. So we are really systematized every time we add a new recurring revenue product and our goal is to add ideally 1 new recurring revenue product a year.
0:14:14 - Corey
Interesting, and so how do you determine what the next recurring revenue product that you want to roll out is going to be? Oh, I have a giant list this is probably a spreadsheet with conditional formulas and all this stuff. Yeah, kind of.
0:14:28 - Xaña
So we do traction and it's actually it's like literally part of our VTO that there is a list of X number of recurring revenue products, and some of them are small. Some of them are like okay, we're going to make sure that we add an accessibility license to everybody's website hosting this year, but that's just easy extra money, or it could be we're going to do a social media product or whatever. We're kind of going for what's what we're ready to offer at the time, but also what the market demand is.
0:15:00 - Corey
Sure. So that's a combination of the 2 what's available and what you can feasibly roll out. I imagine as well. Do you productize your service? Do you like package things up and sell it for a specific preset fee, or are you more into like a custom scoping or somewhere in between?
0:15:17 - Xaña
We have tried the productizing. It is so popular in our niche. Like any trade show floor you walk there's going to be a doctor, here's this website, seo package, bundled fee For this startup package and I kept thinking I was messing out and we would come up with packages and we'd sell them. And it was just never the right package for our clients. Because I came from old world marketing where there was no such thing as a package. If you're working with singer vacuums or real be power tools or a university, you pick the right strategy for that particular business. So the productizing didn't work. We are very custom in our strategy. Even though you know there might be 50 products, we offer that everybody gets some variation there of but packages, just they served the agency, not the client.
0:16:16 - Corey
Very cool. So you tried it and it wasn't wasn't the right fit. I love that. How did you Uh, let me back up. Do you employ sales people at the agency today?
0:16:31 - Xaña
I do. That's been a journey. I'm trying to find, you know, not only the right people but the right way to manage the work. So at the moment we have a full time business development director Whose job it is to take all inbound leads we're very much an inbound agency. She qualifies them and she rejects probably 50% of them. They're not the right fit for us. She then sets them up with 1 of our account strategist. We have 4 account strategist who will do a discovery, write a plan for that client, do the pitch and the close. So they're also an extension of our sales team, but then they're the ones who are maintaining that ongoing relationship with the client in terms of reviews and coaching.
There's like account manager, project managers who are doing the actual work, yeah, but yeah, so they've got a little bit of a hybrid role there.
0:17:25 - Corey
Okay, and um did you? Um, how did this evolve over time? Like, let me ask when was the first time you hired the very first time you hired a sales person, and were there any lessons learned in that experience?
0:17:39 - Xaña
Well, when I hired them, I never really thought of them as sales people. They were just account executives and and it was their job, you know, when a lead came in to talk to them, find out what that person needed and and deliver a contract that hopefully they signed. Uh, it probably wasn't till like seven years ago that we genuinely really thought of it as sales, actually hired a sales coach that helped us structure a program that worked a whole lot better for everybody. But you know, in the beginning it was like I had this horrible. I was trying to find unicorns of people that were strategists, could sell and also manage the projects.
0:18:21 - Corey
Very hard to find.
0:18:23 - Xaña
Yeah, that's why they're unicorns. There were not a lot of them, no, so lessons learned, yeah.
0:18:31 - Corey
When did you realize that you needed to bring in someone? Uh, in this capacity, what you know, like what was happening in the business that led you to say, okay, we need to. We need to bring in someone. Like no longer manage this.
0:18:44 - Xaña
It was the numbers, but seriously, I track everything so I could see every lead that came in, which number of them closed, based on what referral source, based on which AE they were talking to, and I started to realize one of our biggest problems was our AE's did such a great job at building relationships with their clients and maintaining those relationships Our retention is excellent that when new business would come in, it was almost like an annoyance for them. It was an intrusion in the middle of their workday and balls would get dropped and yeah, and leads would get lost and I was like, okay, there is something wrong with our system. So that's when we finally said time to relook at this.
0:19:29 - Corey
That's interesting. That's really what the BD director's role is to kind of take those in, qualify them. What is, what does a qualified lead look like for your agency?
0:19:39 - Xaña
So a qualified lead is someone who their expectations align with what we're going to be able to deliver, and that's usually where you get a bad client is just saying, yeah, this client wants this thing and we can deliver this thing, but their vision of what that thing is supposed to be in terms of results either the product or the number of leads they're getting or the number of patients it can be very different than what we know it will be.
So her job as a business development director is to like ask them really deep questions that they've never been asked before, that uncover. You then don't even realize they're giving us the answers that help us see, like are you ready to work with us, so the expectations aligned, that they've got a budget that is, you know, actually going to get them somewhere? We also like people different kind of agency, but I like leads who have been burned a couple of times by other agencies Because they've realized that whatever they're doing isn't working. It's time to get out of the productized world and move to something a little more custom, isn't that?
0:20:53 - Corey
all of them, by the way. Yeah, whether it's in sales or across the org, do you hire folks with medical or dental background? Is that important?
0:21:07 - Xaña
I try, but it is hard. I have learned it's better to hire somebody who really understands marketing and strategy or developing a website or whatever, and then teach them dentistry. And we've put together an incredible library of resources for every element of dentistry that talks about not just what it is but the technology that's used with it, the what are the patient pain points, what are the benefits of this product, what are the FAQs like. We got a library of stuff that helps educate them.
0:21:36 - Corey
Smart. That's great when it comes to sort of positioning and differentiation. I am somewhat familiar with the medical market in general and a little bit with the dental market specifically. I'll just tell you that my wife is a physician, she's a psychiatrist and she's with an agency now that we're probably not going to stay with, but so I'm familiar with some of the product that's out there firsthand. But I guess my point is that it is a very crowded market. How do you differentiate and position your agency in this sort of sea of competitors, if you will?
0:22:22 - Xaña
So it's interesting when I started this agency 23 years ago, I literally remember doing as much research as I could find there were honestly five other agencies that specialized in dental marketing. There are now hundreds, so differentiating it's like there's a new one every day. It's crazy, so differentiating is really important. I think the three biggest things that differentiate us are the fact that we are completely exclusive to dentists, that we tend to work primarily within the fee for service no insurance participation type of practice because they're the ones who really value and need marketing and that people who are looking for a more custom solution. So we have kind of our proven process is what we call discovering your dental marketing DNA, that we have a process that we go through that identifies the D is their direction, the N is their needs, which is kind of the strategy, and the A is their attributes, which is the brand voice, and building that into the marketing.
0:23:23 - Corey
Yeah, that's really cool. So you have an approach that's proprietary. You focus on the ones that have these specific needs, which is great, and I'm assuming I've not studied your marketing a lot bend your website, but I'm assuming that comes through in the marketing to help sort of differentiate your messaging.
0:23:43 - Xaña
0:23:45 - Corey
Yes, hopefully, I'm sure it is. And so how do you attract new dental clients? You mentioned you're mostly inbound, doing any outbound, it sounds like. So you're mostly inbound. Where are those leads coming from? How are they finding you?
0:23:57 - Xaña
Combination of things. So I do a lot of lecturing around the country. I lecture to study clubs and nationally we go to a couple of trade shows a year. Some years we'll go to 10. Some years we go to three. It just depends on kind of what's a good fit. I do some kind of thought leadership. I have been asked. I have a dedicated column in dentistry today on marketing for dentists and a lot of referrals from existing clients and consultants. But honestly, seo is the biggest one. The higher we rank, the more leads we get.
0:24:37 - Corey
And having been around for about 23 years, obviously with a focus in dental, I'm sure that helps with the SEO and the authority and all that stuff, which is really awesome. You mentioned trade shows. How do you decide which trade shows make sense to go to? What's a good trade show?
0:24:56 - Xaña
For me. I like being able to have a real conversation with somebody at a show, so I actually intentionally prefer smaller shows. I don't want to go to the greater New York meeting that has football fields worth of companies out there. Those are the people who are just looking for a swag that they can pick up and throw in a bag to take home to their kids. It's overwhelming.
Yeah it's too much, so I like a smaller show 200 people that are ideally just the doctors, the decision makers, and you're at a cocktail party with them. Or they come over and talk to you at a break, or they've seen you speak at that event and come talk to you. That is my favorite way to do a trade show.
0:25:37 - Corey
Awesome. I also know, based on your website. It says that you're a part of the Academy of Dental Management Consultants, which I'm assuming is an association involved with the dental industry. Tell us about what that's about and why that's important.
0:25:58 - Xaña
So I think most small business owners, dennis, don't get a lot of education on how to run a business. I know when my husband was in dental school he literally had one class one semester. That was an hour a week, so we've got 13 hours of education and how to run finances and personnel and just all the things. So the Academy of Dental Management Consultants is a wide-ranging group of people everything from accountants, people who coach Dennis on how to present treatment, marketing things like that and it's all people that support Dennis running their business and so there's a lot of inner referrals there because we don't all do the same types of consulting. It's very supportive.
0:26:45 - Corey
So effectively. It's a place where you can go, do thought leadership, add value, pick up some clients, support some of the referrals and whatnot. Do you remember of any other associations I think you may have mentioned?
0:27:01 - Xaña
It's honestly, professionally, not that many. I'm the one who circles around and goes to all of them. One thing, and this is just a hoot to me this tells me I've been around for a while. I will be receiving my fellowship in the International Academy of Dental Facial Aesthetics at the Greater New York Meeting after this Thanksgiving. So, literal cap and gown fellowship, so I'll be in that organization. I don't even know where it came from, but I'll take it.
0:27:33 - Corey
OK, but regardless, and again, congratulations on that fellowship. But I imagine, let me ask you, would you advise an agency owner who's coming up, let's say, in a vertical, could be dead, this could be somewhere else that associations play an important role in your ability to build credibility and awareness in that vertical.
0:27:56 - Xaña
Absolutely. I found that obviously it depends on the niche that you're in, but most of them there's, like these consulting groups or business management groups that often are large and kind of support and serve that industry. So getting an affiliation with those larger groups or anybody that offers continuing education, or again, those associations and trade shows just being where they go to learn something new, that's where you want to be.
0:28:26 - Corey
That's super valuable. I've not heard of the continuing education organizations specifically for that vertical or that industry. That's really cool. I'm taking that note down. Thank you, Taking a step back with regard to taking a vertical market approach. Have there been any bumps in the road or any mistakes that you made along the way, lessons learned that you wouldn't mind sharing with the audience?
0:28:54 - Xaña
I would be so freaking wealthy if I hadn't made all the mistakes that I have made, but you know there's a value to those lessons, so gosh. Best lessons I have learned were the importance of learning leadership, actually getting a leadership coach, because the people on my team are the ones who do the work that makes our clients happy. So it is my job to keep my team happy, and I learned those lessons the hard way. Nobody taught me how to be a boss, so I had to learn some of that Financial management. One of the bigger lessons that I learned was we follow profit first, which I guess you're familiar with it by knotting your head.
It's been very powerful to basically just throw your money into different buckets and say this is the bucket that is our money to spend. The rest of it is either that's money that's set aside for profit or taxes, or profit sharing with the team, or money for the vendors. That was a big one, because there was a point in time where I just wasn't watching the money to that extent and I had an accounting manager who was kind of using money that came in for one thing to pay it for something else and then we didn't have the money to pay for the thing that I was supposed to go towards. So I don't know more expensive lessons than I can think of over the years.
0:30:26 - Corey
Sure, of course. Well, I think those are really good. When it comes to leadership coaching, when is the right time to do that? When is the right time to seek support from a coach which, as an agency founder, is there ever too early to start that, or is there a milestone that makes a bit more sense?
0:30:47 - Xaña
I don't know. I think nobody's going to start it until it's a pain point for them. Very few people are going to say, oh, I'm just going to proactively go learn this thing, that'll make me better. We usually think we're better than we are until somebody tells us we're not. So for me, the first time I engaged a coach was right at that five-year burnout mark that most business owners get to, and it's because they're doing too much and they're working until eight o'clock at night and their employees don't do what they think they ought to be doing. I've learned to recognize when I hit those bumps. There might be a different coach in my future, yeah. So in my opinion, it's just the moment it starts to hurt. Ask for help, yeah.
0:31:31 - Corey
That's great. I think founders are. The default is I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to work harder. I should figure it out. Are you still there, Sonia? You there?
0:31:52 - Xaña
Yeah, I'm here. Can you hear me? I?
0:31:54 - Corey
got you Hang on.
0:31:55 - Xaña
I don't know why it says it's showing me 99% uploading on my screen. I don't know if that's better, that's fine.
0:32:01 - Corey
No, you can ignore that. What it does. I don't know if it's interesting, but they download the video to your computer and then it uploads it. So okay, and 99% is very good. Two last questions here. Was there ever a point when you thought that verticalizing your business wasn't working?
0:32:30 - Xaña
There were questions. I had some questions along the way because I could see sometimes it's a lot for the team to do the same thing, the same topic, over and, over and over again. So you have to find ways to keep it creatively interesting for them. I mean, we're in a business of creative people and you can only talk about teeth so many ways.
0:32:52 - Corey
I hear this a lot. I hear this a lot from people who are agency owners, but they're dealing with a. You know, they have a business, that they're focused on a vertical and there's some agitation internally around like, hey, we need to do something different because I just need some fresh projects, not the same thing. How?
0:33:14 - Xaña
do you manage?
0:33:15 - Corey
that? How do you approach that?
0:33:17 - Xaña
So we'll take, like you know, a local community project or just some passion project for them to do. So. My husband left the world of dentistry a couple of years ago. He now opened a craft brewery in our town. So like they got to work on that kind of a project and it was just it was different enough. That kind of re-sparks their creative energy. So that was definitely one of the that's probably one of the bigger challenges of being niched. You have to really pay attention to that and make sure that they are loving what they're doing so they don't get burned out.
0:33:56 - Corey
Exactly, these are very, very important resources. My last question for you is what's your motivation?
0:34:05 - Xaña
My motivation is, uh and I swear to God, I'm not making this up Because I'm married to a dentist I have talked to so many of them just from like a friend level, and they get taken advantage of from a like a business, consulting, marketing perspective all the time they have no idea what they're getting into. People sell them a bill of goods, they waste money, they get burned, and a lot of times it's the company that they're working with. It's not necessarily the doctor's fault. So, like, I feel very protective about their performing dentistry to make somebody's life better. And so, uh, what motivates me is to educate them, to make sure that they are making smart, informed decisions, whether it's with me or somebody else, because their business has a higher purpose and somebody's got to help them watch out for it.
0:34:57 - Corey
That is awesome. I love that. Uh, where could people reach out to you if they want to maybe ask you another question, a follow up? Or maybe they're a dental? Uh, maybe they're a dentist or have a dentist in the family. They'd love to learn more about your agency. How can people get in touch with you? Sure.
0:35:17 - Xaña
Uh, it's surprising the number of uh agencies who refer to me that are outside the world of dentistry. Um, so the two ways I'd say go to our website, goldenproportionscom. There's a chat feature on there. Drop me a chat Even even if I'm not available. To just throw your email in there, um, or you can always email me directly, which is just X A N A at goldenproportionscom. Um, I was just on the call with a couple of AMI members the other day from totally unrelated to what I do, and they had questions for me and I just love sharing. I mean, after 23 years, I have learned a lot of lessons. Yeah, um, somebody helped me along the way. I'm happy to help others.
0:35:59 - Corey
Well by sharing your time with us here today. You've been extremely helpful and I've learned a lot and I've really enjoyed the conversation. So thank you so much for coming on, sonia.
0:36:09 - Xaña
Thank you for having me. It was great, yeah, okay.
0:36:13 - Corey
Okay, that's stopping.
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